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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 14, 2023 10:53:01 GMT -5
None of that is going to work here. It's clear from the story that she already views angeleyes65 with disgust and contempt and that there are deeply ingrained issues around sex, and that if these are questioned as a strategy, that there are fallback medical issues as well. Opening a relationship? Anal? Toys in the bed? For a person who views her husband as a "sex addict"? Come on. You may well be right, but my own experience tells me introducing a different perspective can bring about a least a temporary change in the relationship. This poor guy has been through the wringer. It may just give rise to a false hope, but in leu of your seeming to conclude there is no hope for this poster, I prefer to exhaust a potential possibility for some improvement via differing approaches. Most refusers probably view the members here as sex addicts. But there are some stories here that represent turn arounds or spouses compromising to save their marriage. Is it a log shot? Without a doubt it is. But I prefer long shot to no shot. PS....I don't think you meant angeleyes65, but kpslick. Ya sorry for the misattribute - will edit/fix. I've been through that process of "introducing new things" after my wife established a pattern of saying the same things about me. In particular, "sex addict" for someone who has sex less than once in 3-4 months, and periodic starfish sex here and there. As many familiar with my story know, I set about cracking my wife's sexual peccadilloes (which surely existed), timing, circumstances, cycles, activities and enhancing my own skills - across a period of years, with the zeal of a world-class hacker. I was game for mostly anything - and pitched and probed in any number of directions that I'd be happy to do. Where we eventually explored for a while was certainly in the non-vanilla realm (and I suspect she has stayed there with whoever her current partners are). And I was always able to technically get her there - where she particularly had a difficult time "getting there" historically with anyone else. But what stayed the same across all of it was her disdain and contempt for me. I was solving for "sex" but the problem was upstream of sex. She could and would have sex - the issue was sex with me - a person whom she had lost her attraction to in that manner, and someone for whom she had come to feel contempt. Any amount of sex with me was too much for her. And because she projected the contempt that she felt, she also assumed I wanted sex with her, irrespective of the lack of connection that (as far as she was aware), was the air we breathed. So, imagine the effect of someone really just feeling contempt for you, and you telling them, "what about anal? maybe we should try that?" That's how it landed for me. Are we solving the right problem?I viewed my problem at the time as a lack of sexual intimacy. The lack was a result though, not a cause, like wet streets causing rain. I'd liken my efforts at fixing it to that of applying a bandage to a knife wound when the attacker is still standing there, stabbing me. "My sex addict husband" does not sound like a fertile ground for compromise. Same with engaging in counselling when you actually want to leave. Also, it's not that I think there's no hope for the poster. It's more that I don't like to consider hope. Generally speaking - and I suspect we agree on this to a large extent - hope only pays dividends when everything is put on the line and the game changes - when the pain of changing is seen as less than the pain of fighting over the same status quo periodically. It's a common circumstance when kids are involved and often when there is some sense of a care obligation, or mutual investment in a household enterprise - to maintain some level of that activity in what follows the marriage. In my own relationship, by the time I felt ready enough to invoke the words to split, I realized that the best case scenario that I had wasn't any different from a close and co-operative co-parent ex-wife relationship. My subsequent relationship with Mrs Apocrypha has been MUCH less painful than the train wreck of constant disappointment that preceded it due to its failure to live up to being what either of us would actually call a marriage. As kpslick mentioned, HER best friend said all he is is a "carer" to her. There it is, out loud. So when I say "wrap up" I don't necessarily mean ending all contact, like some thunderclap door slam. I mean a "market correction" such that the format of the relationship (and expectations) correspond to what's actually felt and what's happening - the truth of the relationship. In any complex situation, all you really have is "the truth". I'm not suggesting on anchoring on the remedy here, until both parties are agreed on some element of the diagnosis, agnostic of what must be done about it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 14, 2023 12:24:05 GMT -5
kpslick .. welcome to the club( no one wants to be part of) Seems per the frequency you have been in a sexless marriage most of your marriage. While I agree delayed ejaculation can be an issue it doesn't have to be. My bf also had that issue with his wife but does not with me anymore because I didn't treat it as a problem we had lots of foreplay and put some thought and energy into it and once he knew I wasn't going to say are we done yet it resolved. How old is your child? I'm sure your child would rather have 2 happy parents living separately then 2 miserable parents. I don't know what your financial situation is or your age but if you make a lot she would probably get some kind of alimony. Maybe her insurance would pay for some care taker hours? Would she qualify for disability and still be able to do her business on the side? Other option if opening your marriage so you can get sex, not be lonely and she can still live how she has been.. If none of that is an option or with any of the above options I suggest counseling for yourself. And doing things socially that make you happy. Enjoy your child even if they are an adult. Do things together. Join meet up groups that get together in the evening she's sleeping anyway. As far as opening the marriage - of course I’ve thought about it a lot. I just don’t know if I could. Since the day I met her I’ve NEVER EVER been unfaithful to her. Despite all the problems and sex being withheld I’ve never strayed. Even before we were married. Just before I met her I decided to go live in canada for a while. And I did, even though we had met. I was only 23 at the time and remained faithful the whole time I was there. Not sure you realise how hard that was - especially as I was living in Whistler, the home of the STD in British Columbia. I guess I’m a bit of a traditionalist regarding marriage. I’ve spend so many years being true to her that I don’t know that I ever could. I can’t even be unfaithful to her in my dreams. On the odd occasion that I have wet dreams I always get to the point of having sex with whoever it is and then stop. I tell them I can’t because I’m married. In my dream. 🤦🏼 She has actually said to me several times in the past that I should just go get it elsewhere. Whilst obviously appealing this also pisses me off. Instead of making love to her husband she’d rather just tell me to go get it elsewhere because she couldn’t be bothered. If she’d have come to me and told me that she always had a fantasy of watching me with another woman or letting me fuck other woman and then tell her about it then I would have been VERY into it. But just telling me to go do it because she couldn’t be bothered hurts me more than I can tell you. And besides which I don’t know if she actually meant it or if it was just a throw away comment. As I said I’ve never been unfaithful but things have gotten so bad that I have actually seriously considered it the last few months. But I’m pretty sure that would be the end of our marriage. Obviously I miss fucking, but I miss intimacy with my wife more. I’m so lonely. I and several others here have had a period in which we either had a serious open marriage discussion, or embarked on it for a period of several years. Your own approach to it has elements that are similar to mine. Some things to consider: 1. Framing it as infidelityIf you agree to doing it and not divorcing, then it isn't infidelity. You aren't lying to your spouse. It's not even a "don't ask, don't tell" arrangement (which I do not recommend, as that is a distinction without a difference from an affair and also defers the consequence until discovery, as in an affair. It's like handing a blank cheque to someone and telling them to buy what they want. Can you afford what they might buy? But, being involved in partner selection, and all or most aspects of the external relationship, sitting and having dinner or drinks with them, seeing them off as they go to be with their partner and greeting them warmly as they come home? That's not infidelity. It may or may not be mutually desirable - but infidelity or an ethical or moral injury is not what it is. 2. Cosmic justice and value of your monogamy to your wife, when neither of you are presently in a monogamous relationship.
This realization changed my life and it will change yours. Despite it seeming simple when you read and say it, people don't truly grasp it easily. You are NOT in a monogamous relationship with your wife. A monogamous relationship is a sexual relationship, and you do not have a sexual relationship with your wife. You each (to your knowledge) have a celibate relationship. A celibate relationship is not a monogamous one. As such, what are you "being true" to? You ARE being true to something, because if either of you were to have an affair, it would likely be upsetting and feel as if a betrayal, despite the fact that you do not have a sexual relationship with each other. You have a tacit agreement to celibacy, which you both endure as the cost of maintaining a married relationship format and intention.
Once caught up in this situation, it gets people caught up in weird feedback loops that end in strange thoughts. Examples: 1. Though you almost never have sex, and have never cheated your wife calls you a sex addict. 2. You want to remain true to a monogamous relationship, but you are celibate, and so is she. 3. While you value your marriage oath to forsake others, your wife forsook you. 4. You are facing what appears to be a dilemma weighing a sexual relationship against the value of a marriage. Think about that sex vs marriage. These are not opposite things. A marriage includes an intimate relationship that by most or any account would likely result in sex. Sex vs marriage is a false dilemma - it makes no sense. 5. I took some level of personal ethical pride in my dogmatic endurance (when in fact my wife actually cheated on me, several times), holding onto this idea that some cosmic justice would result - that at some point my wife would see that I was still there for her when by any external measure, I shouldn't be - and would eventually reward my loyalty and my sense of doing the right thing. It got to be that the worse she treated me, the more I felt it was evidence that she'd see I was perfect for her - because clearly no one else would stand for that. Here's what I think the value of an open marriage conversation and intention is - it's a game changer. It attaches a clear consequence and timebox on the person who has left the "marital intention". So, your wife has CLEARLY said her unilateral intention to not have sex with you, as well as justifying it for whatever her reasons were. She knows you can't force the issue and don't want to, and she also pays the price of not having sex at all with someone she doesn't want to have sex with. You, on the other hand, don't get to have sex with someone you DO want to have sex with - her. So these are not even stakes. Having a crystal clear discussion in which the choices are open marriage (with that defined, timeboxed, discussed in deep and specific detail the who's and whats on all sides - so better read a book about it first) vs divorce. One or the other. No kick it down the road and maybe we can go see a counsellor or maybe I will try harder at some future point. No deferment. Here's the choices and how involved do you want to be? THAT changes the game, because now there is a consequence to pulling out of the intimacy unilaterally. She has to own that she wants YOU to be celibate, rather than just her. That's a difficult position to acknowledge out loud because it is apparent that she has a responsibility attached. And also noting, an open marriage isn't just her compromising; it's your compromise. It's an enormous amount of work particularly for a man. This tends to break an impasse - finally people get serious - both sides. What happens next is anybody's game, but often results in a separation. And truthfully, you sound like you really don't want any of that...
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 14, 2023 13:55:16 GMT -5
kpslick: From what you've described, there's no indication that your wife ever enjoyed fucking you. I don't view that as due to your delayed ejaculation. Some women like 45 minutes of sex. When I was young I had a lover like that and it was lots of fun for me. I'm guessing that probably your wife is asexual or simply has no sexual desire for you. She may have wanted marriage, romance, kids, but didn't want sex. After 6 completely sexless years, and your wife's claiming you're a sex maniac for wanting what would be an unacceptable level of sex, it's clear that you two are not sexually compatible. That isn't going to change. There's no counseling or magic pill that would make the two of you a good sexual match for each other.
The fact that your wife has social anxiety also means that you aren't compatible socially. It can't be a lot of fun for you to always socialize without her.
I'm curious about why you chose IVF instead of leaving the marriage and finding someone more compatible.
I'm also curious about why -- other than your child-- you choose to marry her and then stay in the marriage and use extraordinary means to have a child. Did you think that your wife is your best opportunity for a loving, romantic, sexual relationship?
You wrote: "The only time we have problems in our marriage is when I'm enough of an asshole to bring it up."
To me, it doesn't sound like you are an asshole. It sounds to me like you've bent over backward to accept a marriage that doesn't make you happy, and as long as you don't rock the boat, everything seems fine. But it's not fine. You are contorting yourself into a pretzel to accept a relationship that doesn't meet some important needs of yours.
Your wife's medical problems are unfortunate and now may make it hard for you to leave. Is health insurance a concern of yours for her? In case of a divorce, could you continue to provide health insurance coverage for her?
Have you considered individual counseling for yourself to help you figure out what to do with your marriage?
Couples counseling isn't going to make your wife want to fuck you and enjoy fucking you. If your wife chose to get individual counseling and perhaps medication, that might address her social anxiety, but you'd still be stuck in a sexless marriage.
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Post by h on Feb 15, 2023 6:25:41 GMT -5
My wife is a lot like yours. She wanted marriage and kids but never had any interest in sex. I don't have the DE issue but the result is the same. My wife wanted to adopt so she didn't have to have a sex life (maybe she still does but I'm now past the age where having children is reasonable for me). That was disappointing for me to know that I won't get to be a father, but what's done is done and I can't go back in time. Several years ago she approached me and made a deal with me that I agree to look into adoption with her if we spent an entire year trying to get pregnant and couldn't. We had sex only 8 times that year and only 5 the next. That was her last chance whether she knew it at the time or not. She made her choices and now we both have to live with the consequences of those choices. We won't be having children and if she wants them, she'll have to go find someone else to have them with.
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 15, 2023 9:53:54 GMT -5
h. Why have you chosen to stay with your wife?
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Post by heelots on Feb 15, 2023 13:47:10 GMT -5
h. Why have you chosen to stay with your wife? He didn't, he is no longer with her.
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 15, 2023 19:31:12 GMT -5
Greetings, kpslick . The others have covered so much ground that I would have wanted to. Your wife told you to get intimacy elsewhere. There are three ways to open a marriage: 1) secretly 2) openly (telling your spouse you are doing so) [ not asking!] 3) consensually. When your wife told you to go ahead, she chose door #3. Did she mean it? I'd recommend taking her at her word. Follow baza 's advice and seek legal counsel as to what divorce will look like. Have a support circle of friends ready (build it if you don't have one), get some hobbies going or at least planned, figure out where and how you'll live if your wife decides to divorce since you demand an adult existence. If you split custody in separate homes, you'll have some time you'll want to fill. Some of it with dates, I suppose. Open marriage makes tons of sense here. You can care for both your wife and daughter like you always have. You may just have a more cheerful attitude as you do, now that you have somewhere to go when your wife goes to bed at 7:30. When I sought to open my own marriage, I sought married women as lovers. They already have life partners too. You can invest your everyday existence and caring efforts to your wife and daughters, and escape into the arms of a similarly occupied woman. In the end, I didn't need to "outsource", but I don't expect my result to be yours. You didn't say so, but between the shunning of social events and the weight gain, I'm hearing clinical depression. Some antidepressants cause weight gain. Some antidepressants likely work because of the weight gain, sugar can be a stimulant useful to clinically depressed people suffering avolition. That faithfulness in your dreams thing? Same here. It was a freebie! We're idiots! BTW, why did you move and why can't you move back to the UK? If you dump the Australia house, you are also financially relieved. Maybe it's worth sacrificing whatever benefits Australia gave?
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Post by nyartgal on Feb 15, 2023 20:34:43 GMT -5
There used to be a guy on here, or maybe on the previous site EP, who told people in situations like yours that you need “zip code therapy.” In other words, put distance between you and your spouse by one of you moving out.
I know it’s sad that maybe back in the very early days of your marriage she was super hot and into you, but it sounds like virtually everything sucks at this point. This marriage sounds like it is not fun, has no intimacy, no love (except as one would give to a loyal caretaker), no sex, and lots of problems. You can’t even agree on what country you should live in!
As you said yourself, you can’t take it anymore. You just need to work up the nerve to do what you know is necessary. Zip code therapy! I would definitely talk to a lawyer, especially about whether she could take your daughter to England without your consent, considering that’s where she wants to be and you conveniently own a house there she won’t agree to sell. Maybe she already has her exit strategy lined up and it involves moving back to the UK without you. Though that is also expensive and doesn’t sound like she could do it alone.
You should start working on your exit strategy with the help of a divorce lawyer. I’m sorry both of you are going through this. She’s obviously unhappy and unhealthy and unable to support or take care of herself. She will need to take charge of her own life. You deserve to have a life with someone who sees you more than a nurse and an ATM!
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Feb 16, 2023 8:45:38 GMT -5
Hello kpslickI read your background. Thanks for sharing your story. I am sorry you had to find your way here. You will find some compnay and lots of familiar sounding content to consume. A few things came to mind in reading your story. You definitely sound like you might have nice guy syndrome. There is a book called No More Mr. Nice Guy that might be useful. If you still love your wife and want to remain with her, you might want to consider detaching some from the relationship. From what you describe, you and your spouse are roommates, but emotionally/physically she isnt in to you. Have you reconciled that in your heart and your mind? Some detachment might help. Her illness is a big factor. There is obviously some dependency. Again is there a way for you to assist her as a roommate but be romantically detached. Focus on your needs and your future. Whether that is on your own or with her in a non-romantic way is up to you. But I do think you should focus inwardly some more on your needs and your happiness. This is a process so think some on what that journey might look like for you.
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Post by kpslick on Feb 17, 2023 13:06:21 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your kind and thoughtful responses. It really has helped.
One of the things that makes me the saddest is that I’m clearly not the man my wife thought I was. She used to think I was so wonderful - she used to call me heaven on a stick. She used to get so excited to see me. She used to love me so much.
Now she gets anxious whenever she hears my car pulling into the driveway and has refused to have sex with me for over half a decade.
The shame I feel is immense. I keep wondering how I fucked everything up so bad. I always thought I was a good man and it’s so devastating to know that I’m clearly not.
I’m so embarrassed and ashamed of myself.
I don’t know what I’m going to do.
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 17, 2023 13:40:53 GMT -5
"One of the things that makes me the saddest is that I’m clearly not the man my wife thought I was. She used to think I was so wonderful - she used to call me heaven on a stick. She used to get so excited to see me. She used to love me so much.
Now she gets anxious whenever she hears my car pulling into the driveway and has refused to have sex with me for over half a decade.
The shame I feel is immense. I keep wondering how I fucked everything up so bad. I always thought I was a good man and it’s so devastating to know that I’m clearly not.
I’m so embarrassed and ashamed of myself."
For God's sake listen to what we've been saying here and also go to therapy. You have done nothing wrong. You are a normal human being with a normal sex drive. You are not a pervert. Don't believe your wife. Google and you can find the sexual frequency for couples your age. You'll see that sex is a normal and frequent part of most people's marriages especially at your age. Your wife is gaslighting you by acting like you're a pervert for wanting sex.
The only thing to be concerned about is how you have been completely ignoring your very normal needs and believing your wife's idea that something is wrong with you! As I've mentioned before, there are plenty of women who'd be happy that you take a while to come. Frankly, most men, at least until they are 50 or so and need more stimulation, come too quickly!
Really think about this: Why did you chose IVF when it's very likely that if you and your wife had been having an average amount of sex, you could have gotten your wife pregnant the normal way?
Also think about this: Why did you choose to marry and stay with and have a child with a woman who clearly doesn't like sex or want sex with you?
You have bent over backward to give your wife the celibate but child-full life she wants. Why when it's very likely you could have been with and still could choose to be with a woman who loves you, loves sex with you, and can grow a family the normal way.
There is NO INDICATION THAT YOU ARE NOT A GOOD MAN. I can't say the same of your wife. She has been going out of her way to manipulate you so you feel ashamed and embarrassed about liking and wanting sex, something that's normal for most people. Having a roommate as a spouse isn't normal for most people, even a lot of elderly people. Hell, I'm 71 and my partner and I have sex one or two times a week.
Your wife is deliberately gaslighting you. THerapy and continuing to read here can help you see reality, which is that there's nothing wrong with you for wanting a sexual marriage, but if you are to get that, it won't be with her. The only way you've fucked up is by choosing and staying with a woman who has no interest in sex with you. You can choose to continue the roommate marriage or you can see a lawyer, find out your rights and responsibilities, and proceed toward an honorable divorce. Your wife isn't going to change. You can, however!
Google statistics on how frequently couples have sex and you'll see how much your wife has been gaslighting you. Your marriage is far from what's considered normal.
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Post by northstarmom on Feb 17, 2023 13:52:36 GMT -5
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Post by Apocrypha on Feb 17, 2023 14:13:22 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your kind and thoughtful responses. It really has helped. One of the things that makes me the saddest is that I’m clearly not the man my wife thought I was. She used to think I was so wonderful - she used to call me heaven on a stick. She used to get so excited to see me. She used to love me so much. Now she gets anxious whenever she hears my car pulling into the driveway and has refused to have sex with me for over half a decade. The shame I feel is immense. I keep wondering how I fucked everything up so bad. I always thought I was a good man and it’s so devastating to know that I’m clearly not. I’m so embarrassed and ashamed of myself. I don’t know what I’m going to do I'd suggest you need to read northstarmom 's post and seriously think about the answers to the questions she posed there. Look, the feeling you have right now is very common. You are thinking that you must be so undesirable that your own wife won't have you, so who else would? Right? Everyone feels that way. I did at first. And while the Empirical data proved something quite different, I'd still hold (in hindsight) that even if that was true, I still don't want to be romantically yoked to a relationship in which I'm not wanted that way. It's not better, or less bad. I came to learn several truths that were hard to accept or even see when I was in it: 1. you can love someone, but not want to be married to them. 2. Even though you might love someone within certain formats or parameters (consider as in an affair partner, or a vacation fling), changing that format to "marriage" doesn't necessarily make it better. 3. If you are married to someone who you don't want to be married to (what if you said "Yes" when you should have said "No"), the marriage will feel like a trap, with your spouse as the jailor. 4. When you marry someone and are with them for a long time, eventually the fantasy of who they are is replaced by a real person. And then you have to decide how you feel about that person. Are you still in? I would suggest that in more than half of marriages, the answer is no. They might remain married, but they aren't "in it". Think of someone who you once were attracted to but you learned something about them that changed your mind. Maybe you just found out something you wished you didn't and it changed the way you thought about them. At that scale, it's hard to go back to unknow it. That doesn't mean its's a bad thing - but just something that replaces the fantasy version you hold. It doesn't mean you are a bad person or that you are not attractive. It takes a while for the fog to clear, but you need to understand and forgive yourself. Figure out why you agreed to IVF instead of sex to have children - why this didn't trip a wire for you about the state of your relationship and the way she felt about you.
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Post by mirrororchid on Feb 17, 2023 15:02:52 GMT -5
Thank you all so much for your kind and thoughtful responses. It really has helped. One of the things that makes me the saddest is that I’m clearly not the man my wife thought I was. She used to think I was so wonderful - she used to call me heaven on a stick. She used to get so excited to see me. She used to love me so much. Now she gets anxious whenever she hears my car pulling into the driveway and has refused to have sex with me for over half a decade. The shame I feel is immense. I keep wondering how I fucked everything up so bad. I always thought I was a good man and it’s so devastating to know that I’m clearly not. I’m so embarrassed and ashamed of myself. I don’t know what I’m going to do. I'll repeat my question. Is she on anti-depressants? It's funny how my wife's antidepressants turned me back into the wonderful husband she'd married. Anxious? Why? You may be expressing, even subtly, your disappointment in her. Possibly with great justification. Depressed people can be infuriating. If she hates herself for it, all the worse. Heaven? Hm. And what are you now? Hell? A demanding taskmaster? An incompetent boob? I get the feeling her complaints aren't just sexual in nature. Your self-image seems to be tightly tied up to her approval of you or gratitude to you. A depressed person cannot give you validation, they are too consumed by their own needs (commonly through no fault of their own.) When I started dating and getting accepted, the insecurity faded quickly. If you outsoiurce, validation may become abundantly available. This can recharge your spirits in a way that will help both you and Mrs. Kpslick
As a side note in response to a few replies, I'll repeat your report that a donor egg was eventually required to sire your daughter, so having sex to conceive had been the chosen route, but possibly was not going to work. Not to say that sex only during estrus wasn't a screaming air raid siren.
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Post by baza on Feb 17, 2023 19:49:09 GMT -5
There is one thing you can take to the bank in ILIASM deals Brother kpslick . And that is that prolonged exposure to an ILIASM shithole does your head in, gets you thinking weird shit, gets you making poor choices, gets you on a downward trajectory and the whole thing feeds back on itself in a continuous loop. You really need to be at your best to deal with an ILIASM situation. Usually, in an ILIASM situation, you are nowhere near your best. Zipcode therapy can be a good idea - getting away from the situation for a while so you can think clearly and objectively without the daily toxins the ILIASM dynamic provides. I think that focusing on sorting your own shit out is a pretty good policy.
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