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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 17:45:48 GMT -5
Honestly, I just read where a man asked that "we" not use the word mansplaining anymore. That is clear enough for me.
I really tried to hold out in hopes this would work itself out. Sadly, it did not and has only stirred up a hornets' nest.
To the person who sent me that vile personal message. This feminazi is gone. You won.
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 20, 2016 18:40:10 GMT -5
AWWWWWW SHIT!!!!! NO!!!! Z deleted.....
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 20, 2016 18:48:05 GMT -5
I'd like to jump in here..... and give my thoughts, and those of Mountainrunner's, with her permission.
I don't think it's needed, but just in case, for those who haven't looked at the thread in question.....the issue has nothing to do with the actual words said in the thread, by anyone. There were generalization made by worksforme2, which MR called out as such. WFM2 acknowledged that he missed the fact he did, clarified that women over 50 here don't typically fit his generalization but stuck by his generalization for the general population, citing studies and his own personal observations.
End of story. They both moved on. Very respectful. Very adult. No hurt feelings.
In talking to MR both in PM's and since via email, that exchange had nothing to do with her decision to leave this forum. Dan's reply 4 day's later, and a general reply by the Mod's were.
Dan's reply was incorrect that there was no generalization, it was apparent and acknowledged by WFM2, but clarified. But regardless, Dan cited a previous thread that did go on and on, eventually becoming, as he said, a train wreck. That was seen by MR (and me) and wasn't the case here. His use of CAPS in his reply was also noted. That can be taken wrong, and is typically avoided in forums.
However, it was the generalized Mod's reply/statement that was the most damaging. Keeping in mind that the exchange was short, respectful, and no one's feelings were hurt, it appeared to be an over-reaction to the situation. Mentioning good online etiquette, hurt feelings, and taking generalizations personally. That was not the case in MR's reply. Therefore, she took it as an undeserved scolding.
It went further on to remind (her) everyone that is would help to remember that this is ONE person, giving his/her observations and opinions about a small number of people. As in Dan's reply, that was incorrect in this case, as it was a generalization about women over 50 (clarified later by WFM2 as not typically women over 50 here) which is a very LARGE number of people.
WFM2 was not immune either. The statement by the Mod's mentions using restraint...."perhaps it would be best to remember" when making statements to specify it's by personal experience. I don't know WFM2's thoughts on this, but MR found that offensive as well, on his behalf.
Personally, I agree with Dan that the forum need a guideline saying what the Mod's outlined. But not his reference that this seemed an opportune time and place to roll it out. His assertion that it wasn't directed at any one particular individual...by definition...would suggest that this *wasn't* an opportune time or place. That was unfortunately worded, and was also instrumental in MR's decision. I personally think his link to the permanent home for this statement and request to refocus the thread on the original topic was a good one, however, that request was also made there, leaving this subject with no home. I feel that was a mistake, and thank Z for giving it a home.
As for MR leaving....she regrets that she feels she has to. I and many others, implored her to stay. She is a strong and needed voice on this forum. But she replied with something that not only changed my mind, dramatically, but something I think all on this forum should hear, and be mindful of.
She recounted how, in her marriage to an abusive controller/refuser, she was constantly belittled and scolded for her words and ideas... Here, I'll let her speak for herself.
"For years in my marriage, I allowed my ex to belittle my opinions, make me out to be overly sensitive and to undercut my passion. It didn't matter how carefully I worded things, he always managed to make me feel stupid and wrong. Dan's and then the Moderator responses made me feel the same way."
Is that wrong of her to feel that way? No. As we all learn here, our emotions are ours. It's our reality. The damage of a SM marriage is deep and at times, incomprehensible to others. It's our own private pain and sensitivity. It cannot be questioned.
She also went on to illustrate what she meant. I found it extrodinarily useful, and also a reminder of how MR was so good at taking difficult concepts and boiling them down for the likes of me....she wrote:
Imagine you are sitting in a circle at a support group. Person A makes a statement. Person B disagrees. Person A holds firm. Person B shrugs and lets it go. At the next meeting days later, the leader says to Person B "Hey you overreacted last week." A third person says they don't think that's fair. So the leader stands up and says this meeting is over and everyone has to leave.
How would you feel if you were Person B? Would you feel that this is a safe environment for you to express yourself and share your hurts and thoughts?
But it was these words of hers, in a PM that really spoke to me: (my emphasis with bolding and underlining)
But if I stay here and let this go, I'm betraying myself, treating myself as poorly as my ex did. I would have to accept the viewpoint of the Admin and moderators as appropriate. What is the point in standing up for yourself if you just crater under if your point of view is simply dismissed? I don't believe that I am free to be honest and open here. I don't believe it is safe for me to express my opinion regardless of how careful I am to be respectful. This was an extremely mild interaction compared to many other threads, and yet it was worthy of being locked down and then being told to play nice. I'm not a little girl who needs to be told how to behave. I was appropriate and adult. If my comments don't fit the standards of this forum, then it's just not for me.
Can you see the obvious reference to the years of abuse that she endured at the hands of her abusive ex-spouse? I certainly can and it made me cry. I've been there as well. Belittled, told that I was too sensitive, that I took things wrong...that I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I...and MR...were surely victims of gaslighting, but that leaves lasting scars...and PTSD like sensitivities.
And ultimately, I think that's the lesson that can be learned here. Not only from MR...who is leaving us with a very important lesson as only she can do, but also Helentishappy, and here in this thread even, by @zumbamami...who I've just realized...has deleted her account now as well.
There are sensitivities for all people who come here that relate directly back to their abuse in a SM marriage, sometimes decades of that abuse. To their great credit, Dan and the Mod's are very aware of that as well, and spoke directly to that. I applaud the for that.
Can we be too sensitive? Again, no. It's our emotions that are at stake, our pain we have to endure, and hopefully someday...get past. As the Mod's noted, we all need to feel safe here. MR obviously did not. The tone and content...and application of the statement in regard to her comments, took her back in time to that abuse.
Dan and the Mod's aren't responsible for that, not directly. What they did was needed. . I completely agree with Dans praise of the moderators. They are tireless and overworked for volunteers, and generally do a fantastic job with this forum.
It was just unfortunately timed, worded and in my opinion, ill placed. My only goal here is to explain what the thoughts and feelings are of my dear friend Mountainrunner, and my thoughts and feelings as well. To illustrate what occurred, in my view and hers. And to stand with her and say we all need to be mindful in our words and post's that everyone here....is damaged in someway or the other.
That's worth remembering. That's a lesson MR should be proud of. I'm very proud of her. I will miss her here.
IJU
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Post by misssunnybunny on Sept 20, 2016 19:02:35 GMT -5
Honestly, I just read where a man asked that "we" not use the word mansplaining anymore. That is clear enough for me. I really tried to hold out in hopes this would work itself out. Sadly, it did not and has only stirred up a hornets' nest. To the person who sent me that vile personal message. This feminazi is gone. You won. Oh, Z, so sorry to see you go.
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Post by petrushka on Sept 20, 2016 20:26:28 GMT -5
itsjustus : a great post. I can totally empathize with mountainrunner. That example with person A and person B in a support group, and the misguided moderator (leader to use the quoted word) really says it all - it is a point very very well made. I know the moderators meant well, but unfortunately they created a whole new issue over a minor disagreement, one, ironically, that was already resolved. There was barely what I'd call 'robust' discussion going on. The intervention pissed off a number of people. I had a brief exchange with Helen, she gave me much the same response ... she left because the intervention gave her the feeling that she was not allowed to interact freely (a 'la person B). I was seriously considering walking out, for the same reason as mountainrunner. JMX : great post, thank you thank you thank you. The voice of reason ... I think you called it really really well. There was/is nobody here who needs the mods to intervene on their behalf - except to be shown where the 'block xxx' button is, come to that. Further to this: I see the O.P's reaction to @greatcostal . Does he need intervention because she cut him off at the knees when he tried to engage her? Something like that happened to me months ago when she totally misconstrued one of my posts and when I tried to engage her, politely, respectfully, saying that I thought she might have misread me - her reply was one word 'no' and she then went on to slag me off in another thread --- did I need support from the mods? No. I simply plonked her in the bit bucket - yes, I did - because I decided she was not actually interested in engaging in discussion with people of diverging opinions. I did not need intervention, thanks. The tools are there, even if they be what @jms said: scroll to the bottom of the page and ignore that person. I do not even need the mods to make sure I get the respect I think I deserve as a person. Thanks, I can look after myself. On the other hand, calling someone a feminazi in an abusive personal message is completely out of line. If/when/where that happened I never saw anything published about it on the forum, sadly; I would have waded in to that with a swinging bat - abuse is not ok. Lastly: some people WILL cut off their toes with an axe to make the shoe fit. This is not a barb aimed at those who just left. But it happens. Oh dear, how sad, never mind to quote a certain Welsh actor in a long ago British tv sitcom. A respectful question by one may be seen as personal attack by someone else. Ultimately its down to the attacked to take appropriate measures and it's up to a supportive community to support. Which, in my perception, is how it has always played out in the past. This is a pretty damn good group of people in that respect. On a personal note: I am currently riding in the open door of the tram. The actions by the moderators may have been a well-meaning MAJOR gaffe, but it's changed the climate. Some of you seem to have struck up successful 'behind the scenes' friendships here, which is wonderful; I have not managed to do so, and so there's little holding me. Taking it one day at a time....
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Post by JMX on Sept 20, 2016 20:48:08 GMT -5
petrushka - agree with everything you said (especially the praise of muah) except one thing - it's not worthy of a leave. I think we all have learned something here. I have learned to (maybe) think before I type (a little). We'll all be fine.
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 20, 2016 20:59:10 GMT -5
"You keep using that word, mansplaining, I do not think it means what you think it means". ( even my spell check tries to change it). Honestly you are not helping yourself, as much as you are hurting yourself. It sounds like a pedestal word. Mmm....kind of like if I was to use the words, conservative, traditional, biblical, ethical, feminist,feminotzi, un-ethical,racist,socialist,black power, white power,etc.... Get the drift? I miss your caring advice. I miss your spunk,whit, and humor. I also need a place were I can be made to feel like n equal when I say, " help me learn from that, can you reword that , or explain that? Give me an example,a fact, a theory, a story". That goes way farther than being labeled. A place where others think, Feel free to ask, that's what we do here!" There was nothing personal about that. I used several words as an example,(ranging from one extreme to another) of words with broad sweeping meanings. I asked for help in learning and rephrasing things. I should be able to agree to disagree, after openly wanting to understand someone else's perspective. With an honest open question. If such questions can not be presented in a website with an open forum, than that person may need to move on if they feel that violated. I will not give in and be controlled. This very much comes back to living in a SM, with a manipulative controller.We all can have a different perspective on a situation, due to our backgrounds, upbringings, beliefs, moods, temperaments,experiences, etc....this has nothing to do with winning. But it does have a lot to do with setting boundaries and communication.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 21:18:37 GMT -5
Honestly, I just read where a man asked that "we" not use the word mansplaining anymore. That is clear enough for me. I really tried to hold out in hopes this would work itself out. Sadly, it did not and has only stirred up a hornets' nest. To the person who sent me that vile personal message. This feminazi is gone. You won. I publicly requested that we don't use words that generalize men as idiots. Sorry if some people have a problem with that. Actually I'm not.
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Post by unmatched on Sept 20, 2016 21:33:30 GMT -5
petrushka - agree with everything you said (especially the praise of muah) except one thing - it's not worthy of a leave. I think we all have learned something here. I have learned to (maybe) think before I type (a little). We'll all be fine. Yes, petrushka don't even think about it. And I don't know about thinking before you type even. I don't remember ever seeing a thread here that got very out of hand. Even that one that was described as a train wreck I didn't think was particularly hurtful or vitriolic. I wonder if the odd stand up fight might not be such a bad thing. Especially when they are about generalisations and preconceptions where a decent argument might give us the chance to scratch below the surface and see what it is that people are upset about and what the truth(s) might be.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 21:43:06 GMT -5
Honestly you are not helping yourself, as much as you are hurting yourself. It sounds like a pedestal word. Mmm....kind of like if I was to use the words, conservative, traditional, biblical, ethical, feminist,feminotzi, un-ethical,racist,socialist,black power, white power,etc.... Get the drift? I miss your caring advice. I miss your spunk,whit, and humor. NO. Mansplaining - explaining without regard to the fact that the explainee knows more than the explainer, often done by a man to a woman. Ok. You don't like what I'm saying, and think "I'm hurting myself" for speaking honestly. Good enough. Thanks for your honesty, but your opinion was not requested. Have a blessed day. Well GC you just got womansplained. What? Did I say something wrong?
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 20, 2016 21:54:58 GMT -5
Yea, I kind of expected that. " you don't like what I am saying" is that a quote? No. Did I ever use those words? No. I asked for examples, facts, theories, stories,....It's getting late, I'll let someone else say it better, all opinions are welcome, and requested.
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Post by beguiledcinderella on Sept 20, 2016 22:15:42 GMT -5
petrushka - agree with everything you said (especially the praise of muah) except one thing - it's not worthy of a leave. I think we all have learned something here. I have learned to (maybe) think before I type (a little). We'll all be fine. Yes, petrushka don't even think about it. And I don't know about thinking before you type even. I don't remember ever seeing a thread here that got very out of hand. Even that one that was described as a train wreck I didn't think was particularly hurtful or vitriolic. I wonder if the odd stand up fight might not be such a bad thing. Especially when they are about generalisations and preconceptions where a decent argument might give us the chance to scratch below the surface and see what it is that people are upset about and what the truth(s) might be. Duckies and bunnies and rainbows don't make for an authentic experience. Just my 2 cents
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Post by unmatched on Sept 20, 2016 22:17:21 GMT -5
Yes, petrushka don't even think about it. And I don't know about thinking before you type even. I don't remember ever seeing a thread here that got very out of hand. Even that one that was described as a train wreck I didn't think was particularly hurtful or vitriolic. I wonder if the odd stand up fight might not be such a bad thing. Especially when they are about generalisations and preconceptions where a decent argument might give us the chance to scratch below the surface and see what it is that people are upset about and what the truth(s) might be. Duckies and bunnies and rainbows don't make for an authentic experience. Just my 2 cents That depends on how you cook them
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Post by Rhapsodee on Sept 21, 2016 1:22:55 GMT -5
Well....... crap. I take a nap and all hell breaks loose! Sigh. The written word is so easily misinterpreted. We have choices. We have the power to choose what to read and choose what to respond to. When Richard started bashing me, I decided to not take the bait. I let it sit and I'm glad I did. He can't hurt me because he is nothing to me. The only people that can hurt us are those that we allow into our hearts. I've become close with a few people here and on EP and understand how feelings can get hurt with the best of intentions. Let's let the dust settle. Let's let some healing occur. Let's be patient. Maybe these three ladies will forgive and come back. The door is not closed.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 21, 2016 9:22:25 GMT -5
Honestly, I just read where a man asked that "we" not use the word mansplaining anymore. That is clear enough for me. I really tried to hold out in hopes this would work itself out. Sadly, it did not and has only stirred up a hornets' nest. To the person who sent me that vile personal message. This feminazi is gone. You won. Z, there wasn't any code here that you had to make clear. This wasn't a veiled attack on you or anyone else. You're not the only one who uses that word. I'm sorry if there are some people here who send you messages full of hurtful stupidity. I'm not one of them and you know that.
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