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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 21, 2022 4:56:05 GMT -5
.... I have thought for the longest time that I was unique; that nobody else on earth was routinely denied requests for sex from their spouse, with the resulting feelings of confusion, anxiety, depression, and ultimately rejection/bitterness. She gets to unilaterally decide not to have sex; I get no vote. I'm firmly in the "I'm staying in" camp because I love my wife and the family we've grown together (adult children; one who lives with us because of special needs). ... I'm ready to quit asking and enter the "roommate" stage. Argghhhhh!!!! Mostly, I want to say thanks for providing this forum and for providing some measure of comfort in knowing that my situation is not unique, and this misery does love company. I don't know what the future will hold, but I'm resigned to my fate of a SM and to making goals and improvements to myself and plans for retirement that don't include her. Lordy, blunder8. You have one of the best attitudes in a first post on the Welcome thread that I've ever seen! The statistic I've heard more than once is that 20% of marriages are sexless. You are far from alone. It's just a poorly kept secret masquerading as a joke. Sexless marriage is less than ten times a year (some define it as 10 or less), so you have to imagine that marriages of unhappy spouses are even more common. Having sex eleven times a year is likely an unhappy thing for one or both partners in many marriages beyond the 20%. The idea of "making goals and improvements to myself and plans for retirement that don't include her." is some of the most common advice offered around here and you either had it already or soaked it up extremely quickly. I hope that translates to some healing. I hope you'll give us updates. Most folks split, a handful actually fix things, and a slightly larger handful go the distance and stay sexless, some with strength of character I struggle to fathom. If you do stay aboard your sturdy ship and steer its course, your experience could flesh out the character of a workable long-term sexless marriage. OR, you'll change your mind and the transitions are always informative too. The misery here that loves company, I may point out, is unlike the bushel of crabs that pull each other back into the pot to let no one escape. If you decide to outsource or leave, you'll find support in that choice too. What I dare say ILIASM attempts to do is bring serenity and satisfaction to its members, whatever outcome that will turn out to be.
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Post by blunder8 on Oct 21, 2022 8:14:57 GMT -5
.... I have thought for the longest time that I was unique; that nobody else on earth was routinely denied requests for sex from their spouse, with the resulting feelings of confusion, anxiety, depression, and ultimately rejection/bitterness. She gets to unilaterally decide not to have sex; I get no vote. I'm firmly in the "I'm staying in" camp because I love my wife and the family we've grown together (adult children; one who lives with us because of special needs). ... I'm ready to quit asking and enter the "roommate" stage. Argghhhhh!!!! Mostly, I want to say thanks for providing this forum and for providing some measure of comfort in knowing that my situation is not unique, and this misery does love company. I don't know what the future will hold, but I'm resigned to my fate of a SM and to making goals and improvements to myself and plans for retirement that don't include her. Lordy, blunder8. You have one of the best attitudes in a first post on the Welcome thread that I've ever seen! The statistic I've heard more than once is that 20% of marriages are sexless. You are far from alone. It's just a poorly kept secret masquerading as a joke. Sexless marriage is less than ten times a year (some define it as 10 or less), so you have to imagine that marriages of unhappy spouses are even more common. Having sex eleven times a year is likely an unhappy thing for one or both partners in many marriages beyond the 20%. The idea of "making goals and improvements to myself and plans for retirement that don't include her." is some of the most common advice offered around here and you either had it already or soaked it up extremely quickly. I hope that translates to some healing. I hope you'll give us updates. Most folks split, a handful actually fix things, and a slightly larger handful go the distance and stay sexless, some with strength of character I struggle to fathom. If you do stay aboard your sturdy ship and steer its course, your experience could flesh out the character of a workable long-term sexless marriage. OR, you'll change your mind and the transitions are always informative too. The misery here that loves company, I may point out, is unlike the bushel of crabs that pull each other back into the pot to let no one escape. If you decide to outsource of leave, you'll find support in that choice too. What I dare say ILIASM attempts to do is bring serenity and satisfaction to its members, whatever outcome that will turn out to be. Thanks for the perspective and the laugh ... i definitely need some humor in my life. I admit I'm a bit naive about what other couples are doing or what is common. I do know 3 times per year, and 5 month dry spells ain't cutting it. After decades of this neglect, I'm still trying to plot a course that takes care of me but doesn't drag me down to a vindictive level. I really do want to *try* to remain a positive person and not die a bitter, nasty old man. That said, I know the odds of her suddenly seeing the light are just a tad above zero. I'll continue to be a cordial person while pulling away emotionally and pursuing my own goals. I read somewhere that people don't change when they see the light, they change when they feel the heat. I don't know why I like that saying, but I have no idea what that means in my situation. I'll update in a regular forum. Thanks again for the welcome and support.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 21, 2022 9:19:52 GMT -5
Thanks for the perspective and the laugh ... i definitely need some humor in my life. I admit I'm a bit naive about what other couples are doing or what is common. I do know 3 times per year, and 5 month dry spells ain't cutting it. After decades of this neglect, I'm still trying to plot a course that takes care of me but doesn't drag me down to a vindictive level. I really do want to *try* to remain a positive person and not die a bitter, nasty old man. That said, I know the odds of her suddenly seeing the light are just a tad above zero. I'll continue to be a cordial person while pulling away emotionally and pursuing my own goals. I read somewhere that people don't change when they see the light, they change when they feel the heat. I don't know why I like that saying, but I have no idea what that means in my situation. I'll update in a regular forum. Thanks again for the welcome and support. "They don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat".....I am going to borrow this for future use. We have a term here.... Reset sex....It is a ploy often used by refusers to keep their spouse quiet about sex for a while. After a reset the refusing spouse goes back to refusing until he/she thinks things might be approaching a train wreck like separation or divorce. Then they reset you again. If you have read much you have probably seen the 3 choices everyone has in a SM. Stay, leave or stay and outsource. At some point you will have to choose which one is for you. Unless your spouse makes the choice for you. The stories about refusing spouses who do a turnaround are few and far between. Most often a member here outsources or divorces. In real life what happens is a SM is hidden from view and both spouses live their lives in quiet desperation or misery.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Oct 21, 2022 9:42:13 GMT -5
>If you have read much you have probably seen the 3 choices everyone has in a SM. Stay, leave or stay and outsource<
I would propose a 4th sub option if you stay. That is an open relationship, a don't ask or don't tell policy or some variation that allows for intimacy needs to be met elsewhere.
I don't suggest ENM or Poly because that would be a completely different dynamic from my point of view.
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Post by heelots on Oct 21, 2022 9:54:03 GMT -5
Lordy, blunder8. You have one of the best attitudes in a first post on the Welcome thread that I've ever seen! The statistic I've heard more than once is that 20% of marriages are sexless. You are far from alone. It's just a poorly kept secret masquerading as a joke. Sexless marriage is less than ten times a year (some define it as 10 or less), so you have to imagine that marriages of unhappy spouses are even more common. Having sex eleven times a year is likely an unhappy thing for one or both partners in many marriages beyond the 20%. The idea of "making goals and improvements to myself and plans for retirement that don't include her." is some of the most common advice offered around here and you either had it already or soaked it up extremely quickly. I hope that translates to some healing. I hope you'll give us updates. Most folks split, a handful actually fix things, and a slightly larger handful go the distance and stay sexless, some with strength of character I struggle to fathom. If you do stay aboard your sturdy ship and steer its course, your experience could flesh out the character of a workable long-term sexless marriage. OR, you'll change your mind and the transitions are always informative too. The misery here that loves company, I may point out, is unlike the bushel of crabs that pull each other back into the pot to let no one escape. If you decide to outsource of leave, you'll find support in that choice too. What I dare say ILIASM attempts to do is bring serenity and satisfaction to its members, whatever outcome that will turn out to be. Thanks for the perspective and the laugh ... i definitely need some humor in my life. I admit I'm a bit naive about what other couples are doing or what is common. I do know 3 times per year, and 5 month dry spells ain't cutting it. After decades of this neglect, I'm still trying to plot a course that takes care of me but doesn't drag me down to a vindictive level. I really do want to *try* to remain a positive person and not die a bitter, nasty old man. That said, I know the odds of her suddenly seeing the light are just a tad above zero. I'll continue to be a cordial person while pulling away emotionally and pursuing my own goals. I read somewhere that people don't change when they see the light, they change when they feel the heat. I don't know why I like that saying, but I have no idea what that means in my situation. I'll update in a regular forum. Thanks again for the welcome and support. If the kids are grown and gone, assuming you could divorce and not live in poverty until you die ( which is my problem) to me, the wise choice would be divorce. Of course, my marriage is in every sense, shot to hell and dead in every single sense so all that remains is misery. For someone in a situation like mine where due to finances divorce is just not a reasonable option, having the luxury of divorce being an option would be a prayer answered and one that I would take immediately if I could. I can only guess that something must remain beyond kids and finances for others in a SM which is a good thing. That tells me something worthy must remain if a person remains that actually has the nuclear option which I do not have.Not having divorce as an option due to finances really makes every day I live a prison sentence.
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Post by heelots on Oct 21, 2022 9:59:28 GMT -5
mastmatt welcome to the club. Safety in numbers and all that. Or at least comfort. …. My advice is go to individual counseling. After about 6 months see where you are at if you still want the marriage throw the gauntlet down on the marriage counseling. I wouldn't bother with sex counseling until she works through her resentment.If she can get past it and sex is still an issue then go to the sex counselor. You are right empty nest makes the elephant in the room bigger. That's the point where I left the marriage. Made it easier to go and harder to stay. Thanks for the advice! I do have a some positive news, we did have anniversary sex two weeks ago and it was good enough! She still enjoys having me around and misses me. It was nice not having any kids around, I think that can be a big hindrance to married sex with some women. Being empty nesters will give me/us more time for counseling also, that has mentioned in a roundabout way. I cannot imagine having relations on any special day or occasion such as V day, birthdays, anniversary, or literally any other occasion. Not once in most of 25 years did that ever happen in my marriage. To me, that would be absolutely epic!
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Post by blunder8 on Oct 21, 2022 10:37:48 GMT -5
"They don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat".....I am going to borrow this for future use. We have a term here.... Reset sex....It is a ploy often used by refusers to keep their spouse quiet about sex for a while. After a reset the refusing spouse goes back to refusing until he/she thinks things might be approaching a train wreck like separation or divorce. Then they reset you again. If you have read much you have probably seen the 3 choices everyone has in a SM. Stay, leave or stay and outsource. At some point you will have to choose which one is for you. Unless your spouse makes the choice for you. The stories about refusing spouses who do a turnaround are few and far between. Most often a member here outsources or divorces. In real life what happens is a SM is hidden from view and both spouses live their lives in quiet desperation or misery. Bam! I've needed the clarity of language y'all provide here. Reset sex is indeed the ploy. But reset sex is fool's gold. It makes you feel great and everything's wonderful except it's a big lie. I'm leaning toward option 3. One of the things that weighs on me is this: I really do love her and care about her. As we age and health problems inevitably come into play, how do I manage to stay emotionally detached (she doesn't deserve my affection anymore), while truly caring about her well being during times of health problems/hospitalization and feeling guilty that I don't care more? I don't know if I'm articulating this well. Damn this is all so confusing....and sad that I have to work this damn hard to sort this out when she could just TRY to add the ingredient to the marriage that makes it work. I'm not perfect; I have my faults but I have done the work of helping around the house, have been there for my kids always, have paid her compliments and initiated the sweet text messages and other gestures. I no longer buy into the lie that her not feeling a connection to me is MY fault alone.
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Post by heelots on Oct 21, 2022 10:58:09 GMT -5
"They don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat".....I am going to borrow this for future use. We have a term here.... Reset sex....It is a ploy often used by refusers to keep their spouse quiet about sex for a while. After a reset the refusing spouse goes back to refusing until he/she thinks things might be approaching a train wreck like separation or divorce. Then they reset you again. If you have read much you have probably seen the 3 choices everyone has in a SM. Stay, leave or stay and outsource. At some point you will have to choose which one is for you. Unless your spouse makes the choice for you. The stories about refusing spouses who do a turnaround are few and far between. Most often a member here outsources or divorces. In real life what happens is a SM is hidden from view and both spouses live their lives in quiet desperation or misery. Bam! I've needed the clarity of language y'all provide here. Reset sex is indeed the ploy. But reset sex is fool's gold. It makes you feel great and everything's wonderful except it's a big lie. I'm leaning toward option 3. One of the things that weighs on me is this: I really do love her and care about her. As we age and health problems inevitably come into play, how do I manage to stay emotionally detached (she doesn't deserve my affection anymore), while truly caring about her well being during times of health problems/hospitalization and feeling guilty that I don't care more? I don't know if I'm articulating this well. Damn this is all so confusing....and sad that I have to work this damn hard to sort this out when she could just TRY to add the ingredient to the marriage that makes it work. I'm not perfect; I have my faults but I have done the work of helping around the house, have been there for my kids always, have paid her compliments and initiated the sweet text messages and other gestures. I no longer buy into the lie that her not feeling a connection to me is MY fault alone. I think that fault is almost never 100% the fault of one person. Certainly no one is perfect and to think everything in a lousy relationship is all on the other person would be very immature.I am sure almost without a doubt this never was all on you, just like fixing a marriage, one person alone regardless of how much positive energy you express in your efforts, or how much money you put into those efforts if the spouse is not responsive to your efforts and nothing seems to work at some point the light will come on and the one working on things will finally get it and just give up. That is without a doubt when a person knows there is just no way to fix the sinking ship. Make sure and grab the rowboat and don't go down with the ship would be my best advice.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Oct 21, 2022 12:49:03 GMT -5
blunder8 You may want to consider starting your own thread to ease discussion tracking lest your journey here gets buried in the "Introduction" thread. As for the concerns below, it sounds to me like you need to consider compartmentalization. That is, the separation of conflicting thoughts, emotions and experiences to avoid mental contradictions which can give headaches. This is challenging but can be achieved with practice. >As we age and health problems inevitably come into play, how do I manage to stay emotionally detached (she doesn't deserve my affection anymore), while truly caring about her well being during times of health problems/hospitalization and feeling guilty that I don't care more? <
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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 24, 2022 6:01:06 GMT -5
"They don't change when they see the light. They change when they feel the heat".....I am going to borrow this for future use. We have a term here.... Reset sex....It is a ploy often used by refusers to keep their spouse quiet about sex for a while. After a reset the refusing spouse goes back to refusing until he/she thinks things might be approaching a train wreck like separation or divorce. Then they reset you again. If you have read much you have probably seen the 3 choices everyone has in a SM. Stay, leave or stay and outsource. At some point you will have to choose which one is for you. Unless your spouse makes the choice for you. The stories about refusing spouses who do a turnaround are few and far between. Most often a member here outsources or divorces. In real life what happens is a SM is hidden from view and both spouses live their lives in quiet desperation or misery. Bam! I've needed the clarity of language y'all provide here. Reset sex is indeed the ploy. But reset sex is fool's gold. It makes you feel great and everything's wonderful except it's a big lie. I'm leaning toward option 3. One of the things that weighs on me is this: I really do love her and care about her. As we age and health problems inevitably come into play, how do I manage to stay emotionally detached (she doesn't deserve my affection anymore), while truly caring about her well being during times of health problems/hospitalization and feeling guilty that I don't care more? I don't know if I'm articulating this well. Damn this is all so confusing....and sad that I have to work this damn hard to sort this out when she could just TRY to add the ingredient to the marriage that makes it work. I'm not perfect; I have my faults but I have done the work of helping around the house, have been there for my kids always, have paid her compliments and initiated the sweet text messages and other gestures. I no longer buy into the lie that her not feeling a connection to me is MY fault alone. Daddeo suggested Don't Ask, Don't Tell as a fourth option, but I've been under the impression that the third option, "Outsourcing" includes DA,DT. I started to elaborate but it became a wall of text. So I posted it in the Glossary here: iliasm.org/post/144073/thread You think you're confused now? Pour yourself a drink. Those engaging in outsourcing commonly want to stay married. Their reasons can be pretty fleeting, or permanent. Divorce is one way to apply the "heat" to force change. Informed outsourcing is another. Both ILIASM member jerri and I took this route. We both took efforts to precede the outsourcing bombshell with special attention to provide all the love a spouse would want, and none of the love they don't. If you choose this plan, you are seeking the indulgence of your spouse to find the indescribable bliss that is sexual intimacy with someone else. If it is granted, your love for your wife is fully justified. Another member, baza , will warn you that this heat can fix a marriage, but it can also destroy it. One or the other is almost a certainty. In the event "destroy" is the outcome, you'll have wanted to fully understand what divorce looks like for you in your state. When I decided to seek physical love elsewhere (I made no claims to keeping it physical only, as some wives will ask for. That may work for some folks.) loving my wife became easy. She was soon going to be my life partner. Someone I had spent my life with and would spend the rest of it with, just as the storybooks tell you. (To be fair, the fairy tales don't mention Prince Charming's mistress, but they don't deny it either.) You love her, but she doesn't deserve your affection? I'm not sure you believe that. You may not love her anymore but it's terrifying to admit. OR you love her and find her worthy of affection. Even want to give her affection. But you feel abused and feel the sap for wanting to be abundantly kind when a simple gesture is denied you. Hey man, been there. That resentment burned at least two straight years before I set off to fix that shit. Jerri took a lover and kept her husband and he knew about her partners. I took this route and my wife decided to reset and has stayed that way for almost three years now. If you're ready to divorce, but would prefer to stay, maybe this is something to pursue. Start with a consultation with a divorce lawyer and buying the Mrs. some flowers for no reason. (the reason comes later.) Marriage fixes are, as you've been told, very, very rare. On the other hand, informed outsourcing is also very, very rare and the track record isn't nearly as bad. The main problem is many refused spouses have expressed the sentiment "Eff that, I want the whole deal. I want to grow old with my soulmate. I have one somewhere and my spouse ain't it."
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Oct 24, 2022 8:19:51 GMT -5
Regarding your statement below, I agree and it really is semantics about how you define outsourcing. You can outsource with your spouse knowing or not knowing. The important thing is not whether thats considered cheating/outsourcing or not, the important thing is that a decision needs to be made about whether the decisison to cheat/outsource is one that is discussed with the spouse or not. The link you included I think covers the subtleties of the types of outsourcing. Again, the labels don't matter more than a way to describe the different approaches to outsourcing.
>Daddeo suggested Don't Ask, Don't Tell as a fourth option, but I've been under the impression the third option, "Outsourcing" includes DA,DT.<
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Post by jim44444 on Oct 24, 2022 17:03:42 GMT -5
blunder8 and worksforme2 you both referenced This is a line used in "Conversation with the Devil" Ray Wylie Hubbard. Not germane to this post just one of the innumerable pieces of useless information between my ears.
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Post by worksforme2 on Oct 24, 2022 17:30:30 GMT -5
blunder8 and worksforme2 you both referenced This is a line used in "Conversation with the Devil" Ray Wylie Hubbard. Not germane to this post just one of the innumerable pieces of useless information between my ears. Are you a member of "The Keepers of Odd Knowledge"? I myself am a member in good standing.
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Post by blunder8 on Oct 24, 2022 18:51:15 GMT -5
blunder8 and worksforme2 you both referenced This is a line used in "Conversation with the Devil" Ray Wylie Hubbard. Not germane to this post just one of the innumerable pieces of useless information between my ears. Thanks. I haven't read that work so I must have picked it up somewhere else. It's certainly memorable and true. Sounds like you have lots of other gems stored for easy recall.
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Post by jim44444 on Oct 24, 2022 19:02:21 GMT -5
blunder8 and worksforme2 you both referenced This is a line used in "Conversation with the Devil" Ray Wylie Hubbard. Not germane to this post just one of the innumerable pieces of useless information between my ears. Thanks. I haven't read that work so I must have picked it up somewhere else. It's certainly memorable and true. Sounds like you have lots of other gems stored for easy recall.
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