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Post by baza on Jul 2, 2021 1:03:02 GMT -5
Brother alwaysdenied . Have you taken legal advice as to how a divorce would shake out for you ? (I've just been going back through your threads and it doesn't seem to have been mentioned)
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Post by alwaysdenied on Jul 2, 2021 8:29:23 GMT -5
I believe had she gone and gotten help and been truthful to the counselor, then a lot of her problems would be out and worked on. I genuinely loved her and would have done anything I could to facilitate this (and I did honestly). But if she agreed now? I don't think it's fixable unless she did a complete 180 and actually loved me back. I really don't know the stats of Narcissists being healed.
Baza, I have NOT started looking for legal advice just yet. I'm not ready to divorce until the last kid is out of school. By then, the options will be easier.
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Post by baza on Jul 2, 2021 20:14:01 GMT -5
The advisability of having a plan for a situation where you are no longer married is not just confined to ILIASM shitholes. ALL marriages end - death or divorce see to that fact - so it's as well to have a contingency plan.
You have only limited control over this issue. You may well have the final say in whether you divorce or not. You don't have any control over a situation where your missus chooses to divorce you. Nor do you have any control over you (or her) going under a bus.
Any married person needs to have a current contingency plan to cover a situation where they suddenly find themselves not married any more.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 6, 2021 11:37:20 GMT -5
So my wife is [...] uninterested in any advances from me. [...] got some kind of relaxation pills but refuses to take them. I'm not sure if that's because she prefers the wine or if there is something else. Regardless it's yet another part of her life out of control that she has solutions but refuses to even attempt to fix. The drinking is much worse. It's to the point where I rarely see her sober until the weekend. [...]She had been covering it so well and lets face it, it's easy because I don't really care anymore. I know she's not happy and she has threatened to leave, even to the point of getting in the car but realized she was way too lit to drive. [...] I'm pretty good at avoiding confrontation. I've started fishing and hiking and kayaking. When I purchased a kayak, she asked if I got her one too because she wanted to come with me. So I went ahead and spent the money even though I knew it would be a waste. She went once and never again. 'Too hot'. I just go now and don't even invite. If she wanted to come or do something else, she knows all she has to do is say something and I'd be game. So as of now... I hate to say it, but I've had to train myself to fall out of love and become a better business partner. It's not the relationship I want or will endure past what I feel are my obligations. But I'm a person who doesn't do things unintentionally. I'm sorry alwaysdenied. I've been in a similar situation - many of us have. If you are looking for a common story, then look at the substrate under the drinking and the sex avoidance. Both behaviors are common to people who feel trapped in a situation with no escape. Being trapped in a marriage to someone for whom your feeling has changed. The sex isn't something she's forgotten how to do. You seem to be catching up now, orienting yourself toward an independent life and interests and not pinning that on a person who isn't really a partner and who doesn't intend to be (but might be trying to avoid facing that). That's not a bad way to be - thinking about the next chapter and how you want to spend your life.
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Post by alwaysdenied on Jul 19, 2021 11:18:04 GMT -5
Yet another update in my diary.
Sometimes I need to go back and read my plan because it's so easy go go back to the trap and expect something different. The last few times, I've been blunt about my disappointment, not accepting whatever excuse there is or 'I know I have problems' because it's not sincere. Sometime last week she was already drinking and came on to me. Kissing and necking like the old days and I was thinking who is this woman? But as a man who enjoys this sort of thing, I won't lie, I was pleasantly surprised. So we were going at it (kissing) and I reached my hand down and she literally looked me in the eyes and said...'We're NOT having sex' just deadpan as hell. Matter of factly. So I looked at her and said, something about how that's some bullshit and I disengaged and went and did something away from her. That haunted me all week. If you're making out and acting all horny but simply refuse then to me there is nothing left to salvage. It was a turning point to me.
Obviously I'm dumb because Saturday I had worked hard all day like literally exhausted. I admit to wanting release when I'm exhausted to that point, don't know why but I know it's a thing. My wife was all excited because Twilight was finally on Netflix and she loves her some vampire love. She cozied up to me and was all 'friendly'. Time to go to bed and I was like hey you know... that was a good movie.... She says, yeah it's soooo romantic. So I'm like hey... how YOU doin? And she was like... yeah um no. So I just said, I don't understand why I can't get it through my head that you have zero intimacy for me. She did her song and dance about how it's all her and how she hates herself. I say, whatever it's fine. It's nothing new.
I go out and recline on the couch and she comes out like 10 minutes later naked and says something about... you agitate me. Then comes and tries to straddle me and just as she is getting ready to say something like fine just have your way... I say "Oh HELL no, I don't want that." She's all like no really it's ok, let's go. And look at her and said 'GET THE FUCK OFF ME. I don't need or want your minimal effort pity sex. I know you have zero feelings for me sexually and yet I'm only mad at myself for falling for your bullshit again.' You could see the look in her eyes when she knew the mask was off. She went to bed, then later I did and completely stayed on my side and moved every time she would touch me (incidental are you there touch, not sexual touch).
The next day was tense. She was extra nice and of course later said, hey maybe later tonight we can get it on and I'll even let you give me oral pleasure. I looked at her and said it's not happening. I said it is what it is and she changed the subject. I figure before long I'll drop the whole bomb of her just being a roommate. That's how I view it. A professional contract signed on to finish raising the kids. I'm sure I'll eventually fall for something because I'm a dumb guy. Or maybe she'll go and see a lawyer. I'm not there myself due to the reasons I've said before.
This is more of a diary entry so I can go back and look over this.
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Post by baza on Jul 19, 2021 20:32:03 GMT -5
Personally, I think the diary idea is a good one Brother alwaysdenied . I base that on my own experience. I started a diary in March 1999 (I was going through a pretty tough time then, including an ILIASM deal) The diary helped me enormously, as you have to get your thoughts organised before you write then down. It also had value as a reference point (when did particular events happen and how did that work out etc etc, and how I was feeling at the time) The diary ran from March 1999 all the way through 2011. There are 17 volumes to it covering my life over this period. The diary was like my confessional, my confidante, my place to vent, my place to turn to when I needed it. Now I got out of my ILIASM deal in October 2009. Interestingly, my diary entries gradually started to drop off steadily from then. As it turned out, I got involved with another woman during 2010. That placed me in a position where I had a real live person to be my confessional / confidante / sounding board etc etc. And even more - like life partner, lover and partner. I haven't made very many entries in that diary since 2011. But it sure was an invaluable thing back in the day. I still refer back to it sometimes. I may, just for fun, drag them out later today and have a look at where I was at July 20th 1999, 2000 2001 etc etc etc. Whenever I do this, I usually find entries that cause me to reflect on "what the fuck was I thinking ?" Anyway, to re-cap ..... Diary ? - yep, good idea.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 20, 2021 12:32:54 GMT -5
So I just said, I don't understand why I can't get it through my head that you have zero intimacy for me. She did her song and dance about how it's all her and how she hates herself. I say, whatever it's fine. It's nothing new. It isn't fine. It's also more than her "having zero intimacy for you". The reason why no one at this point can get it through their head is because they are still operating under the premise that this person is their sexual partner. It's possible to love someone - or to be intimately familiar with them - think of a "work wife" or a best friend - but not see them as a sexual partner. Most people come to these boards framing the issue around their partner inexplicably being "off sex". That's different from the frame of "I don't have a sexual relationship with that person" or "That person is not or is no longer a viable sexual partner". If the latter, it is perfectly reasonable for both partners to be horny and frustrated and to feel trapped by their cohabitation, and for both of them to feel that they are martyrs for the marriage. Once I did what you just did - which is acknowledge out loud to yourself and to her - the truth of the cohabitation - and believe it, my thinking became much more clear across the next month. When I was horny and my wife tried to make nice with various sexual invitations, which she would 100% trickle out only at her own whim, as a method of assuaging me - I learned to stop biting down on that hook. She wasn't doing it because she wanted me, but rather because she felt she should. I removed my wedding band. I set up a spare bedroom and moved into it and started getting much better sleep. I joined a gym and got more into fitness, and used my body that way. I stopped preventing myself from making plans with friends and being around women who liked me. I stopped fighting with her to try to get her involved with my family events. I accepted what she had clearly been showing me - that I was not her partner. And as such, stopped acting like I was.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 20, 2021 18:51:39 GMT -5
Yet another update in my diary. Sometimes I need to go back and read my plan because it's so easy go go back to the trap and expect something different. The last few times, I've been blunt about my disappointment, not accepting whatever excuse there is or 'I know I have problems' because it's not sincere. Sometime last week she was already drinking and came on to me. Kissing and necking like the old days and I was thinking who is this woman? But as a man who enjoys this sort of thing, I won't lie, I was pleasantly surprised. So we were going at it (kissing) and I reached my hand down and she literally looked me in the eyes and said...'We're NOT having sex' just deadpan as hell. Matter of factly. So I looked at her and said, something about how that's some bullshit and I disengaged and went and did something away from her. That haunted me all week. If you're making out and acting all horny but simply refuse then to me there is nothing left to salvage. It was a turning point to me. Obviously I'm dumb because Saturday I had worked hard all day like literally exhausted. I admit to wanting release when I'm exhausted to that point, don't know why but I know it's a thing. My wife was all excited because Twilight was finally on Netflix and she loves her some vampire love. She cozied up to me and was all 'friendly'. Time to go to bed and I was like hey you know... that was a good movie.... She says, yeah it's soooo romantic. So I'm like hey... how YOU doin? And she was like... yeah um no. So I just said, I don't understand why I can't get it through my head that you have zero intimacy for me. She did her song and dance about how it's all her and how she hates herself. I say, whatever it's fine. It's nothing new. I go out and recline on the couch and she comes out like 10 minutes later naked and says something about... you agitate me. Then comes and tries to straddle me and just as she is getting ready to say something like fine just have your way... I say "Oh HELL no, I don't want that." She's all like no really it's ok, let's go. And look at her and said 'GET THE FUCK OFF ME. I don't need or want your minimal effort pity sex. I know you have zero feelings for me sexually and yet I'm only mad at myself for falling for your bullshit again.' You could see the look in her eyes when she knew the mask was off. She went to bed, then later I did and completely stayed on my side and moved every time she would touch me (incidental are you there touch, not sexual touch). The next day was tense. She was extra nice and of course later said, hey maybe later tonight we can get it on and I'll even let you give me oral pleasure. I looked at her and said it's not happening. I said it is what it is and she changed the subject. I figure before long I'll drop the whole bomb of her just being a roommate. That's how I view it. A professional contract signed on to finish raising the kids. I'm sure I'll eventually fall for something because I'm a dumb guy. Or maybe she'll go and see a lawyer. I'm not there myself due to the reasons I've said before. This is more of a diary entry so I can go back and look over this. If you were up for healing this former marriage, what behavior would you want to see? Your counter-refusing seems enraged rather than targeted. You're staying for the kids. That's a long time for a tense house not to explode. She could leave because the dynamic has grown hostile in both directions instead of just you being dumped on An amicable divorce may be the finish line you have in mind. The gestures occurring between now and then may require repair and reconciliation if the parental partnership is desirable. I'd wonder if you can make clear what dynamics would be acceptable, which ones you'd prefer, and which won't fly. Diplomatically and in remembrance of those good times you say you share even today. Standing firm need not be accomplished with anger. I dare say when no anger is involved, that can be all the more powerful. Refuse mistreatment without retaliation. If you wish to be generous, you may even include some devotion, if not love; a tribute to the marriage you always meant to provide, but she did not receive with the appreciation it called for. Or, screw it. Burn the thing down. I don't know where you are or where you've been. Easy to armchair quarterback.
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Post by flounder on Jul 20, 2021 21:39:26 GMT -5
I accepted what she had clearly been showing me - that I was not her partner. And as such, stopped acting like I was. - Apocrypha
Easier said than done,I would expect. Having said that,there is probably some liberation in it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 26, 2021 0:38:28 GMT -5
I accepted what she had clearly been showing me - that I was not her partner. And as such, stopped acting like I was. - Apocrypha Easier said than done,I would expect. Having said that,there is probably some liberation in it. There was nothing easy at all about saying or doing it. That was my marriage, my family, my past and my foreseeable future - all gone. Just saying the words felt like I stepped off a cliff on a moonless night. It felt almost dreamlike, feeling them float in front of me while my lips moved to say them. This board is filled with thousands upon thousands of stories of people trying anything and everything to change about themselves and their environments, their expectations of what a marriage even is - to avoid accepting that their relationships have changed into something that no longer meets a definition of marriage that either of them would agree to. Prior to saying the words, for me, was a year or two of gradual separation and a severing of any sexual expectation from a woman who didn't see me as a sexual partner. At some point in that run, I realized she never would. It didn't feel much like liberation at the time. More like an amputation of a cancerous limb. I'm not sure what that might feel like.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 26, 2021 7:18:34 GMT -5
This board is filled with thousands upon thousands of stories of people trying anything and everything to change about themselves and their environments... It didn't feel much like liberation at the time. More like an amputation of a cancerous limb. I'm not sure what that might feel like. I thought "gangrenous"; cancer spreads tumors that kill you later anyway. But then I thought... tumors are the bad habits you leave the marriage with and the baggage that may make you pick another refuser the next time. No, Apocrypha nailed it in one. Cancer. Handy recommended Dad Starting Over in another thread. (Fatherhood is optional to benefit from his refused spouse advice) DSO, the host, suggests men start picking up a share of teh housework, unasked. If you end up divorced, you're going to end up doing all of it anyway. Don't say anything just do it. You're doing it for you, not the refuser. Choreplay and appeasing refuser demands is unlikely to kindle romance. It is part of the "taking care of your own shit" baza speaks of. Most of "your own shit" is mental, but if you slack on the housekeeping, you're in for a lot of stress when it all lands at once. Some spouses will chafe at this and it may behoove us to do just our own laundry or just our own dishes. If the spouse has tips for how to keep a peaceable house, take the advice. They may have a point. (e.g. dishes face the center to get a better spray of water from the spindle in teh center,. Washing dishes twice is counterproductive) This may be solid advice for your future life given free of charge. You can decide how to tweak it to your tastes later. For laundry, you can check the user manual for teh washer online, resolve to buy new clothes if you ruin some, ask one question per week how to perfect your methods. This is under the assumption a refuser will have found it too much trouble to teach and has resigned to do everything themselves. They do not have teh right to tell you not to do your own laundry, so, they either tolerate your rumpled, faded clothing, or they share their wisdom. (Maybe a housekeeping thread with tips?) For everyone already taking on the lion's share of housework, perhaps this is a time to enlist the kids? Teach them some rudimentary cooking? Plan simpler meals than you're used to making because you may have more chores as a single parent to do soon and you need to build in some slack? A housework thread may be useful for the soon-to-be solo household. Is there one? I'll poke around.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 26, 2021 11:04:24 GMT -5
For me, once I decided to divorce and started going through it, I felt liberation. The hardest part of it was the years before when I was gritting my teeth and enduring and trying to fix a sexless marriage instead of freeing myself from it.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 26, 2021 21:31:05 GMT -5
DSO, the host, suggests men start picking up a share of teh housework, unasked. If you end up divorced, you're going to end up doing all of it anyway. Don't say anything just do it. You're doing it for you, not the refuser. Choreplay and appeasing refuser demands is unlikely to kindle romance. It is part of the "taking care of your own shit" baza speaks of. Most of "your own shit" is mental, but if you slack on the housekeeping, you're in for a lot of stress when it all lands at once. Most men where I live (Canada) have a fairly even share of housework. Still, I find that there tends to be a division of labour though - and some tasks seem daunting. I second the "own your own shit" idea, by diving right into the tasks that you are going to have to do anyway. It makes them a bit less scary.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jul 27, 2021 7:29:05 GMT -5
DSO, the host, suggests men start picking up a share of teh housework, unasked. If you end up divorced, you're going to end up doing all of it anyway. Don't say anything just do it. You're doing it for you, not the refuser. Choreplay and appeasing refuser demands is unlikely to kindle romance. It is part of the "taking care of your own shit" baza speaks of. Most of "your own shit" is mental, but if you slack on the housekeeping, you're in for a lot of stress when it all lands at once. Most men where I live (Canada) have a fairly even share of housework. Still, I find that there tends to be a division of labour though - and some tasks seem daunting. I second the "own your own shit" idea, by diving right into the tasks that you are going to have to do anyway. It makes them a bit less scary. I have concerns people fixate on the division. If you're pulling 70% consistently, absent a disability, you may have cause for complaint but I'd like to tell foolish young people considering 70+ years of permanent union, expect to put in 60%. Both of you. 60% is reasonable unless you're under the impression you have the correct amount and type of housework in mind. If you have this conceit, you will find it reasonable to impose these beliefs on your spouse and in your frustration, attempt to change them. In the event your 60% is still inadequate, I recommend lowering your standards rather than elevating someone else's. If the thought of lowering your standards gives you angst, do not marry. Half of compromise is likely to involve this horrific decision and "Compromise less" is a good way to start the divorce process. If you want your marriage to be like Congress, proceed with that plan.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jul 29, 2021 15:26:55 GMT -5
Most men where I live (Canada) have a fairly even share of housework. Still, I find that there tends to be a division of labour though - and some tasks seem daunting. I second the "own your own shit" idea, by diving right into the tasks that you are going to have to do anyway. It makes them a bit less scary. I have concerns people fixate on the division. If you're pulling 70% consistently, absent a disability, you may have cause for complaint but I'd like to tell foolish young people considering 70+ years of permanent union, expect to put in 60%. Both of you. 60% is reasonable unless you're under the impression you have the correct amount and type of housework in mind. If you have this conceit, you will find it reasonable to impose these beliefs on your spouse and in your frustration, attempt to change them. In the event your 60% is still inadequate, I recommend lowering your standards rather than elevating someone else's. If the thought of lowering your standards gives you angst, do not marry. Half of compromise is likely to involve this horrific decision and "Compromise less" is a good way to start the divorce process. If you want your marriage to be like Congress, proceed with that plan. Insightful. As a further anecdote, when I was in marriage counselling, the psych asked us to write down the % of effort that each of us was contributing toward saving the relationship, and how much our partner was. I wrote that I was contributing the overwhelming majority of the effort, whereas my spouse wrote that she was. Assuming we were not performing or gaslighting the therapist, it meant that each of us was contributing 70-90%, but in an area that meant very little to our spouse, or doing something that was naturally very hard to do for us but easy for the spouse (which is a reasonable result). There's an interesting thing I noticed particularly with child discipline and with house cleanliness. Whoever has even the slightest degree of tighter discipline, or the slightly lower degree of tolerance for untidiness, will end up doing 90% of the work in that area. It's not because they one is totally sloppy and the other is wired tight. It's because whoever snaps first is the one who is going to consistently do the work just to get it done. This is frequently discussed with housework situations - without care for the observed evidence that when men live together as roommates, housework still gets done (albeit possibly to a lower standard). When married partners fight about this, it comes out as hyperbole. "Why do I always have to be the asshole? Why can't you ever [do X]?"
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