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Post by lessingham on Apr 5, 2021 5:53:43 GMT -5
Recently my wife and I had "words" and I said that her constant refusals made me feel ugly and worthless. She replied I was not ugly. I said that's how you made me feel. She paused and then said I was exaggerating. And it made me realise that she was right in her world and she dismissed my world entirely. There cannot be a compromise where each side no refuses to see but actually cannot see the other person's side of the arguement.
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DrNo
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Age Range: 51-55
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Post by DrNo on Apr 7, 2021 3:43:59 GMT -5
I have not read all of the above comments, but I have read yours and of course guru Baza's. :-)
My best friend lives with an ASexual lady. Two kids from IVF, she had no eggs, so had a donor with his sperm. They are both in their early 60's and the kids are 19. He confided with me the other day that it had 15 years since they last sex and that his wife told him at the time she was ASexual (or in his words "just not interested anymore").
I'm not far of that. Penetrative sex for me is twice a year, but fumbles are 6/10 times a years. So in short I'm there too.
The one thing I have had to cope with is family tragedy, which actually took my mind of home for a while. Then there is covid and lock down in the UK. Again it has all helped with my head space but the problem still persists. My wife is a teacher, and has worked like a hound for 12 months now. It is not easy. All the family have told her to ease up, but she does not. I am now watching her age before my eyes. her mum and dad are worried sick. The kids have tried talking to her. Nothing works.
The only option I have left is to leave. I'm well off and there is no issue having enough money to live for the rest of my life for either of us or our kids.
Just as a repeat I do a lot of the stuff in the house. Never row. bit grumpy at times, but that is, in my head, because of what is going on with lack of any form of intimacy. It doesn't help my mum and dad have never once told me they loved me, cuddled me, kissed me, nothing, since the day I was born. I'm 55, my mum 75. My dad passed last year and I was the person who wiped his bum and fed him until his last breath. He woke from his coma twice, clear as a daisy, due to the excessive pain (it can do this), and not once did he tell me loved me, I told him twice. He told his sister he loved her. I could go on ..
Why I say all this?
Well, you are not alone my fella human, we are in this together. we may live on different islands, have different waves lashing our shores, but for sure we feel the same way and have the same view.
The way I see it, until I'm prepared to get into my boat and sale off that island to distant lands of unknown, I need to make the best of what I have. As sad as that may seem.
I wish you well and hope you find peace at some stage, but for sure unless your wife at least acknowledges your position, you are in for more of the same, as I am.
Lastly, many years ago a friend Martin came up to me at a sports even, said "expect you know me and louise have split after 20 years of marriage" .. nope I replied, and in sadness offered him my commiserations. His reply "do not be sad, it's the first day of the rest of my life! There was no way I was going to only have sex once a year, when she wanted it, with a lady that wants the lights out and doesn't give a f!". I bumped into Martin five years later, new lady, engaged, and in the best shape of his life. He also said "best thing I ever did was leave, good luck to the next bloke".
I never forgot that day. btw he took his pension early and now travels the world holidaying and chilling out, gym, married and very happy. he is on my facebook, as is his ex wife. The ex wife is re-married to what I can only describe is the complete opposite of Martin. Old man, large ... I expect he never asks for sex!
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DrNo
Junior Member
Posts: 52
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by DrNo on Apr 7, 2021 8:29:54 GMT -5
I'm sorry for all the grammar and spelling mistakes. I normally re read everything, but this time I was in a rush to get out the door. Apologies. Of course sale should have been sail. Even I know that word :-)
One can assume you can all read into what I'm trying to say. Basically I'm the one in control, I just need to make a decision and go with it.
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Post by baza on Apr 8, 2021 0:44:50 GMT -5
Dunno if this helps at all Brother DrNo but back on October 7 2019 I put up a thread called "Have You Been Out Of Your ILIASM For At Least A Year" and invited all members who had been out at least a year to participate in a poll question. That question was - "Are you happier now than you were a year ago ?" Over 90% of respondents said "Yes". You might deduce from that that you are highly unlikely to be unhappier once you've been out of your ILIASM deal for a while. Might be worth looking up that thread, in particular the comments section. Post ILIASM deal, some people who got out are in new relationships, some were dating, some were just enjoying the relief of not being in their ILIASM situation. None of them seemed to have any great wish to go back to their ILIASM deal. The most common comment was "Wish I'd got out earlier".
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 8, 2021 21:49:27 GMT -5
Most of the people on aesexuality.org, won't be aesexual anymore within two weeks of separating from their partner. I don't think the "if you were paralyzed from the neck down" question is really all that relevant in all these cases here, and is likely harmful in its false equivalency. Medicalizing and catastrophizing what's really a simple (and fatal) loss of attraction in a relationship, ends up prolonging the inevitable, framing this dysfunction as something that's happened to both of you; it isn't. It kept me yoked to Mrs Apocrypha for years of therapy, misery and affairs. It wasn't a medical issue. I often find that a celibate partner's demand of monogamy would be more aptly described as a demand for celibacy, if they want to get real about it. So, it's down to "Have a different sexual partner" (in or out of the marriage) or "Let's be celibate forever."... See, the threads I read were of asexuals truly wishing to love their partners physically. Not in a "get it over with and as little as possible" way either. These are people distressed at their own indifference. It isn't indifference, mirrororchid ; it's aversion to their partner. I've been indifferent to sex with a friend who was single who absolutely was, tearfully, desperate for a shag from me. Inwardly, I weighed the pros and cons and said "why not?" I didn't regret it. Neither did she. I've felt that way before and she knew it - she trusted me and approached me because of it. We had a shag with my indifferent self (who soon got into it enough), and I didn't even have much, if anything to lose from NOT having a shag. Compare my indifferent self who shrugs shoulders and smiles before dropping trou', to someone who has everything to lose - family, marriage, money, relationships and everything associated with a shared married life to someone - but who still says "No way." That's not indifference; it's a situation in which sex is VERY important - important enough to avoid with someone she doesn't want to have it with, even though there is a risk of substantial, devastating loss. It's a person who cares a great deal - enough to avoid sex despite the risks. And it's that substantial, devastating loss that leads me to ask you, how could you possibly tell the difference between an aesexual who is distressed at her own indifference to sex with her partner, versus a person distressed that her aversion to sex with someone she no longer sees as a viable sexual partner? Either case is worthy of causing a substantial amount of risk and stress. Add denial into the mix, and a lack of fantasy imagination (fantasy leads to imagining sex with others - which she sees as hopeless or unsettling), and why wouldn't someone who has checked out of a person not think she had become aesexual? Why wouldn't she feel distressed about being trapped in a marriage to someone she doesn't want? She's ALSO weighing a life of celibacy vs a life of shagging someone who repulses her in the sack. In my post marriage years, I'd say that the number of women I've been with who said "I used to think I was aesexual" is more than I can count on one hand. The first one I noticed who thought she was aesexual was Mrs Apocrypha. This -- despite her affairs and despite the open relationship period in which I most definitely had eyewitness proof that she had a lot of enthusiasm to offer in a sexual relationship. I suspect she's given up on that bullshit narrative after I pointed out that her "aesexual" self had placed her boytoy personals ad literally a day after we agreed to split and not pursue external partners until we moved apart. I kinda think she clung to that narrative despite how nonsensical it was for the same reasons we both did in marriage. It seemed a kinder story to each of us.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 9, 2021 4:44:36 GMT -5
See, the threads I read were of asexuals truly wishing to love their partners physically. Not in a "get it over with and as little as possible" way either. These are people distressed at their own indifference. It isn't indifference, mirrororchid ; it's aversion to their partner. I've been indifferent to sex with a friend who was single who absolutely was, tearfully, desperate for a shag from me. Inwardly, I weighed the pros and cons and said "why not?" I didn't regret it. Neither did she. I've felt that way before and she knew it - she trusted me and approached me because of it. We had a shag with my indifferent self (who soon got into it enough), and I didn't even have much, if anything to lose from NOT having a shag. Compare my indifferent self who shrugs shoulders and smiles before dropping trou', to someone who has everything to lose - family, marriage, money, relationships and everything associated with a shared married life to someone - but who still says "No way." That's not indifference; it's a situation in which sex is VERY important - important enough to avoid with someone she doesn't want to have it with, even though there is a risk of substantial, devastating loss. It's a person who cares a great deal - enough to avoid sex despite the risks. And it's that substantial, devastating loss that leads me to ask you, how could you possibly tell the difference between an aesexual who is distressed at her own indifference to sex with her partner, versus a person distressed that her aversion to sex with someone she no longer sees as a viable sexual partner? Either case is worthy of causing a substantial amount of risk and stress. Add denial into the mix, and a lack of fantasy imagination (fantasy leads to imagining sex with others - which she sees as hopeless or unsettling), and why wouldn't someone who has checked out of a person not think she had become aesexual? Why wouldn't she feel distressed about being trapped in a marriage to someone she doesn't want? She's ALSO weighing a life of celibacy vs a life of shagging someone who repulses her in the sack. In my post marriage years, I'd say that the number of women I've been with who said "I used to think I was aesexual" is more than I can count on one hand. The first one I noticed who thought she was aesexual was Mrs Apocrypha. This -- despite her affairs and despite the open relationship period in which I most definitely had eyewitness proof that she had a lot of enthusiasm to offer in a sexual relationship. I suspect she's given up on that bullshit narrative after I pointed out that her "aesexual" self had placed her boytoy personals ad literally a day after we agreed to split and not pursue external partners until we moved apart. I kinda think she clung to that narrative despite how nonsensical it was for the same reasons we both did in marriage. It seemed a kinder story to each of us. Not sure why I was thinking asexuality changed the dynamic. It doesn't. Asexuals avoid sex. Sure. Because it's icky? Because it muddies one's grasp of the deeper soul connection they value more? Don't know. Largely doesn't matter. The posts I read (with a specific search term having been used) pulled up compassionate asexuals unhappy with their aversion. To attribute higher minded reasons for that aversion doesn't substantially change the dynamic. It is a form of "why chasing" where I did not pursue the answer, merely assumed it was a higher level reason than sexual people who also avoid sex at the substantial risk you've noted before. (and persuasively.) If a refuser is petty or has the loftiest rationale, the result is the same and that is all that can matter eventually. Chasing down teh why for asexuality is similar to the reason for refusal to the point of splitting hairs. The lack of imagination is a speculation I do not recall having read from you. The revulsion / aversion to fantasies of adultery (even unrealistic fantasies) may be so successful, perhaps aided by disciplined religious upbringing, would replace sexuality with one's betrothed with nothing and plausibly produce a mindset akin to asexuality. This charge by some refused spouses would be semi-accurate. Within a marriage the person does become mentally asexual. Once divorced, the aversion to sex with others goes away until married again where the cycle may repeat (or not.) How many of these women who rediscovered their sexuality had been married? How many were single? Of the single ones, did they have any skilled lovers in their history? (Barring a time machine, you may not have these answers.) Absent positive sex experiences, sexual fantasies may never have occurred. Why dream of unpleasant or tedious sex? If the thought does occur, it may be seen as an itch to scratch like hunger. Few look forward to hunger and if your only food has been pablum, eating isn't something to think about for its own sake. Mrs. Apocrypha is an odd case. Thought she was asexual despite having affairs/opening the marriage? Did she get anything out of her FsWB other than sex and enthusiastic sex brought about more of it? Being a good lover brought about teh benefits she actually sought and was indifferent to the sex (said "Why not?" to get what she actually needed?) Maybe validation of some kind she could not get? "Am I attractive? Does Apocrypha stay with me just because we're married? Do I still "got it"? Was sexual command of her FWB her turn on with the sex being a method and not a goal?)
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 12, 2021 0:29:15 GMT -5
Not sure why I was thinking asexuality changed the dynamic. It doesn't. Asexuals avoid sex. Sure. Because it's icky? Because it muddies one's grasp of the deeper soul connection they value more? Don't know. Largely doesn't matter. It matters this way: If it's someone who has lost attraction for you, it feels different than someone who is afflicted with this "aesexuality" malady. The latter triggers a "let's face this together" kind of righteousness or Stoicism on the part of the abandoned spouse, as if their so-called "aesexual" spouse has been afflicted with cancer or has suffered a paralyzing injury. Effectively, yes. Technically, no. For the idea of aesexuality as a diagnosis or orientation (depending on your wokeness-level), I go by the idea that aesexuality shouldn't be a surprise to anyone - meaning it should predate the marriage. If something goes off with sex as soon as you get married - it likely has something more to do with being married to you than it is any rapid onset "aesexuality". And yes, if the person feels trapped in their marriage and is resigned to living it it regardless, and if they don't choose to fantasize about affairs or other people, it's likely this lack of fantasy will be hard to distinguish from aesexuality. All of them had been married. You raise an interesting point. I can offer an anecdote of my present girlfriend's sleep doula, who met a guy (they are in the 40-55 age range), and who said to him that she really didn't like sex for herself but she enjoyed pleasing. He was pretty dialed into her and convinced her to see a sex therapist, and it turned out - it was exactly as you said. She just had been unlucky, or had picked a number of very inexperienced and unskilled lovers. She now is discovering sex and is an evangelist about it. Mrs Apocrypha had complicated sexuality and it was very, very difficult (if not impossible) for her to orgasm with a partner. I was one of maybe two people who could reliably do that with her. Her affair partners apparently were not particularly skilled. Her open marriage partners were, but were not familiar enough to bring her to orgasm. And whatever has happened since - I'm not really sure. Did she get anything from her FWB etc? Sure! What's more important here is that she did not want to have sex with me. That was the constant. My presence in her sexual experience was always a compromise for her, post-marriage - starting from the wedding night, and getting worse from there. I came to realize about our open marriage, that being with me was the tradeoff she endured, so she could maintain her household and have the partners she wanted (who were not me)
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