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Post by mirrororchid on Oct 19, 2021 5:26:41 GMT -5
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Post by csl on Oct 19, 2021 7:26:21 GMT -5
njsojourner I have always wanted to know a similar thing.. what a refuser is actually thinking. Obviously I don’t know either and I think that even the first hand accounts of a refuser would i think likely be muddled and confused. The most obvious thing to me would be that a refuser just doesn’t like sex very much. I can bet that is by far the most common reason. I think there are less frequent times when a refuser has other reasons but I think these reasons don’t apply to a majority but do maybe serve as a fake shield or excuse more often. Chris Taylor, at Forgiven Wife, is a former refuser, and her blog tells of her transformation. She and I did a series of posts on my blog that we called A Wife's Heart Colloquy that generated a lot of dialog. Reading that series might give insight into the mind of some refusing wives; here is the link to the first in the series: curmudgeonlylibrarian.wordpress.com/2015/07/08/a-wifes-heart/
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 19, 2021 12:37:35 GMT -5
Sure, nobody wants sex with somebody they don’t like. I don’t either. But there are those also who don’t like sex and find a reason not to want it. Its not hard to tell the difference. I wonder if my wife will find somebody she “likes” enough. We’ll have to see. It IS hard to tell the difference, though, when people are still in the relationship and when they are celibate rather than seeing others. Hell, in my own marriage, Mrs Apocrypha thought she was aesexual even when she was having an affair. She rationalized it as the affair helping her to recover her "lost sexuality". Aesexuality is a rare diagnosis, whereas, with the thousands who come to this forum - the most common thing initially said is "my partner hates sex". It's much easier to see once out of the relationship, and once there is a frame of comparison, and once you are dating other separated or divorced people - how common the same story is. But it doesn't seem to be easy to see or admit when people are in it. I tend to regard myself as fairly dialed in, observant - and the idea that she was just turned off to ME exclusively - seemed incomprehensible almost. She'd chased after me - demonstrating a robust sex drive for years prior to getting married. I was all "let's face this together and fix it - restore it to what it was!". There is a significant shift in framing the problem, from "we are facing this problem together" as an external thing affecting the marriage, vs "she isn't happy in the relationship with me in this format and no longer sees me as a sexual partner".
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Post by carl on Oct 19, 2021 15:13:09 GMT -5
Just my opinion but I believe that the core of the problem where there is a refused and a refuser lies in a difference in sex drive. I guess that a sexless marriage could also constitute two people who both refuse or don’t want sex but thats maybe a different scenario. For myself I have many drives in life and I am a strongly emotional person too. However my sexual side often equals or exceeds other influences. So I could have a very stressful life, hardship or even be in physical pain but sex would still at times surpass those other feelings. I could even be at considerable odds with my partner and be exposed to unpleasant behaviour at times but still want to see and believe in their good side, put aside their wrongs, and go ahead and move forward to enjoy a full marital life. But maybe that takes a bit of doing for others perhaps. I think my wife cannot get over things which upset her so easily and there are things which more easily depress her interest in sex. I believe that she has a lower sex drive than I do and that her drive does not pull through life’s inevitable ups and downs. I feel as if her sex drive is fragile and constantly needs nurturing and supporting. Sure she may one day find a change in circumstances either with me or with somebody else where her sex drive becomes revived. But I wonder if it would eventually simply fall back to where it is right now with me. Its a risk I wouldn’t take if I ever met her again.
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 19, 2021 15:55:36 GMT -5
Just my opinion but I believe that the core of the problem where there is a refused and a refuser lies in a difference in sex drive. I guess that a sexless marriage could also constitute two people who both refuse or don’t want sex but thats maybe a different scenario. For myself I have many drives in life and I am a strongly emotional person too. However my sexual side often equals or exceeds other influences. So I could have a very stressful life, hardship or even be in physical pain but sex would still at times surpass those other feelings. I could even be at considerable odds with my partner and be exposed to unpleasant behaviour at times but still want to see and believe in their good side, put aside their wrongs, and go ahead and move forward to enjoy a full marital life. But maybe that takes a bit of doing for others perhaps. I think my wife cannot get over things which upset her so easily and there are things which more easily depress her interest in sex. I believe that she has a lower sex drive than I do and that her drive does not pull through life’s inevitable ups and downs. I feel as if her sex drive is fragile and constantly needs nurturing and supporting. Sure she may one day find a change in circumstances either with me or with somebody else where her sex drive becomes revived. But I wonder if it would eventually simply fall back to where it is right now with me. Its a risk I wouldn’t take if I ever met her again. There are the words of two refusers in this thread who have explained in their own words what actually goes through their head. There are accounts from people - like myself- who have sat both sides of this coin. So I don't think it's actually about sex drive. There is likely a TON of people who have been through this and out the other side of it - where a miraculously "low sex drive" was found again in a subsequent relationship. Or, where a high or not unusual sex drive suddenly "became a low sex drive" for years, only to be restored with a new person. Of course there are variances in sex drive, but that really doesn't explain the difference between the majority of couples who have normal weekly/daily relations, and then which end up sometimes with years of celibacy, punctuated by the worst, most unwilling sex. That's not a "difference in sex drive". That's about how they feel about their partner - at least, that's what would seem to fit the pattern. Look, if you don't see someone as a sexual partner (you aren't attracted, don't respect, don't like them, don't enjoy the circumstances of the relationship etc), no decrease in the amount of sex will be too much. You'll want NO SEX with that person. Any sex is too much. If you like someone, and want them, and you have a shitty day, stressful life etc (who here on this board does not have stress in their life), then having sex with someone you enjoy is going to fill you up and restore you. It's a self-soothing behavior to try to handwave abandonment and rejection in a relationship as somehow not directly reflective of how she views you. It was certainly something I focused on so I could sit in marital counselling and spare my own ego and believe we were building something back here. But reality catches up eventually. It sometimes takes years to figure it out. Some people never do.
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Post by isthisit on Oct 19, 2021 18:13:32 GMT -5
I have to agree with Apocrypha . I also think a low libido is the issue in the minority of marriages here. Reading for a short time quickly makes you aware that different flavours of dysfunctional marriages abound. Tales of spouses who love manipulation and control much more than sex are evident everywhere here. Then you have the verbal abusers, narcissists and psychopaths, add in the Aspy’s and other social communication disorders. Not forgetting the spouses with mood disorders and past histories of abuse (or alleged abuse) to contend with. And then there’s the drinkers, gamblers and porn addicts [add in your own assorted addictions here]. Did I forget anyone? The largest cohort surely is the common or garden dud marriages well past their sell by date, with no-one with the gumption to act. It’s convenient to believe it’s a low libido and that your H/W’s endocrine system is to blame. Look a little closer- you will find your deal in this list somewhere. But what’s the difference? The ‘reason’ doesn’t change your circs- or your future in the dud marriage.
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Post by carl on Oct 23, 2021 5:23:36 GMT -5
I believe that people need two things to have a good sex life. Firstly the desire to have sex and secondly a lack of personality problems which may get in the way. Maybe one needs a lack of both desire and personality to end up refusing ones spouse. For me a woman with a low sex drive could maybe make things good with a little effort. But for me I believe its both low sex drive woman with a selfish personality in my wife that has resulted in my having so much energy for other things. Ok, then gentleman.,, anybody have a female partner that was a real goer and orgasmed like a train that just turned round and went off sex in a marriage. That has never been my case thank good and that maybe lessens the pain. Its a bit like an old ford that broke down rather than a ferrari. I guess thats gotta hurt if it were the case and yes I bet there’s gotta be stuff going on there. Maybe I should be grateful.
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Post by carl on Oct 23, 2021 12:13:33 GMT -5
Thats just the kind of song that makes me get up and dance.
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Post by ironhamster on Nov 11, 2021 21:46:41 GMT -5
Apocrypha 's analysis is hard to counter. I could certainly make the argument that such a coldness amounts to abandonment. Unfortunately, the courts in most states don't see that as an issue. I get no feedback on my ex's current relationship, if it exists. It'd be nice if she would find the love of her life and remarry. The relief from the end of my alimony payments should assuage the frustration I get for believing our quarter century together was nothing more than fraud for her financial benefit.
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Post by njsojourner on Nov 12, 2021 20:11:04 GMT -5
I'm finally shared my outsourcing with a very close friend. I knew he was pretty religious (Catholic) and very reflective. After all he does meditation! ;-) He gave me his view with a bit of concern (disgust?) in his voice. He said he would never want to be on his deathbed and have to confess such a thing. He doesn’t know how I can go back to my wife and act like I did nothing wrong. How do I look at my kids and grandkids in the eyes and not feel shitty? Simple I said… SEX! Maybe I am a shit in some ways but I am beyond caring. My twin rules: good safe sex and do not embarrass my wife.
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Post by greatcoastal on Nov 13, 2021 18:45:49 GMT -5
What did my ,now ex, withholding spouse think of sex?
Well..for years I documented everything as it occured, here on ILIASM. Looking back I remember her quote to our phycologist about sex, " I don't see the need for it. It's not important to me. I can take it or leave it. It doesn't matter to me."
Did that answer explain what she thought about withholding sex? Not really. Heck... it brings up even more why? and what? questions.
Was that her train of thought about sex when we were first married? Can take it or leave it? Does that mean sex with someone else? Would she feel that way with anyone? Was sex just to procreate? With me when she is in full control? Can she be giving/submissive? No need for it? How much of that has to do with past trauma? Religion? Low self image? Low labido? Being Assexual? Or just another excuse to avoid things?
The why's just keep going, don't they?
Better to start over with someone else, and work on your own why questions. ( Here's to new beginnings! Which includes Trust, respect, intimacy, joy, self esteem, and better health....just to name a few!)
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 15, 2021 5:26:14 GMT -5
I finally shared my outsourcing with a very close friend. ...He said he would never want to be on his deathbed and have to confess such a thing. ... Just checking my assumption about Catholics. They confess sins to a celibate priest (in theory) and they get absolution and perhaps some act of penitence to perform. Why would you confess this on your deathbed? Confession isn't cumulative. Unless... Your bud thinks you'll be makin' the ladies happy til the day you die (or at least the week before!) Nice vote of confidence.
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Post by jim44444 on Nov 15, 2021 10:02:30 GMT -5
I finally shared my outsourcing with a very close friend. ...He said he would never want to be on his deathbed and have to confess such a thing. ... It sounds as if your friend's wife could be a candidate for membership on ILIASM. His implied disgust about the intricacies of human sexuality does not bode well for a fun relationship. I was indoctrinated in Catholicism for the first 19 years of my life and I can testify that the views about sex as expressed by priests and nuns were aberrant at best.
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Post by njsojourner on Nov 16, 2021 21:25:06 GMT -5
I finally shared my outsourcing with a very close friend. ...He said he would never want to be on his deathbed and have to confess such a thing. ... Just checking my assumption about Catholics. They confess sins to a celibate priest (in theory) and they get absolution and perhaps some act of penitence to perform. Why would you confess this on your deathbed? Confession isn't cumulative. Unless... Your bud thinks you'll be makin' the ladies happy til the day you die (or at least the week before!) Nice vote of confidence.
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Post by njsojourner on Nov 16, 2021 21:32:42 GMT -5
As a recovering Catholic myself, in general, Catholics have an unhealthy view of sex. Sex=reproduction ONLY! I have been on a long journey to where I am now and as I have said, sex is essential to Human existence and to emotional health. I have evolved to where I prefer married women as my partners — they seem more engaged and frankly are sexier than younger single women I have been with who think they are doing me a favor! A married woman wanting sexual fulfillment is so damn sexy and beautiful and free!
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