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Post by bballgirl on Oct 4, 2016 10:25:30 GMT -5
" may be a few. There might be a situation where cheating becomes a vital source of confidence, bringing a greater sense of worth that would then go on to benefit the betrayed party" - THIS!!
For me outsourcing was a good thing and it was a decision I did not come to lightly. It helped my self confidence, my self esteem, made me feel wanted and desired as a woman.
It also opened my eyes to just how selfish my ex was and how broken we were as a romantic couple.
I think that outsourcing could have been a very different experience for me depending on who that person is and how you are as a person. What are your expectations for the affair. I also think that that needs to be discussed before you enter an affair. I also believe people should talk very frankly about sex before engaging in it- likes, dislikes, etc. or else someone is definitely going to be disappointed. I for one do not want that person to be me so before I have sex with someone when the texting gets flirty, I ask them straight up if they like to eat pussy? And if they ask me for my bra size then I am sure as hell asking them for their dick size, what's fair is fair.
When I first met my AP we sat in Starbucks had a very open conversation and he told me straight up he was happily married except in the sex Dept. I was married too at the time and I didn't know how much longer I would be married but discreetness was very important to me. I ended up divorcing 2 years later. My AP is still in my life and I consider him a friend, sometimes he gives me dating advice and then we fuck each other's brains out! For me personally passion is more important than romantic love. Sex makes me happy, feeling wanted and desired makes me happy and the person who was supposed to love me was not capable of that. If I didn't outsource and allow myself to experience the feelings of being wanted and desired first hand then maybe I would have stayed in my SM with low confidence and self esteem but I took a risk and gambled on myself. Fortune favors the bold!
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Post by Deleted on Oct 4, 2016 14:39:51 GMT -5
Great article. It's true that when you're in a SM, you feel like there must be something terrible wrong with you, and that can go into a downward spiral of low self-esteem and depression.
Yes, I know that in general, you do not want your self-esteem to totally depend on someone else wanting you or loving you. OTOH, in a marriage or serious relationship, it is usually assumed that you are wanted and loved - so when that isn't true, it's devastating.
So, it can be a boost to know that your spouse is not the only man/woman in the world; and that somebody exists who finds you attractive. And that boost to your spirits can be the motivation you need to get serious about an exit plan (or at least, get serious about improving your life in some way.)
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Post by baza on Oct 4, 2016 19:00:52 GMT -5
There is no denying that cheating has a number of things going for it.
If it didn't, then people would not engage in it.
Big boost to the ego, affirmation of ones sexual persona, big endorphin rush etc etc etc.
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And sure, it could be a method of helping one stay in a dysfunctional marriage by supplying the missing component, particularly in (mainly mythical) situations where "everything is great bar the sex" !!!!!!!!!!!
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But cheating involves bringing a 3rd party in to an already dysfunctional situation, and that invariably spins things off at crazy and unpredictable tangents.
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The cheating choice can have numerous different and variable and unpredictable consequences.
Some possible consequences 'good'. Most probable consequences 'not so good'.
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And for every example like that in the article (enhancing the primary relationship by supplying the missing component) I could point to 5 or more huge potential negative outcomes that are just as likely to happen.
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IF you are going to go down this path (and it is a perfectly valid choice to make) then you need to prepare for a worst case consequence.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 6:45:39 GMT -5
There is no denying that cheating has a number of things going for it. If it didn't, then people would not engage in it. Big boost to the ego, affirmation of ones sexual persona, big endorphin rush etc etc etc. - And sure, it could be a method of helping one stay in a dysfunctional marriage by supplying the missing component, particularly in (mainly mythical) situations where "everything is great bar the sex" !!!!!!!!!!! - But cheating involves bringing a 3rd party in to an already dysfunctional situation, and that invariably spins things off at crazy and unpredictable tangents. - The cheating choice can have numerous different and variable and unpredictable consequences. Some possible consequences 'good'. Most probable consequences 'not so good'. - And for every example like that in the article (enhancing the primary relationship by supplying the missing component) I could point to 5 or more huge potential negative outcomes that are just as likely to happen. - IF you are going to go down this path (and it is a perfectly valid choice to make) then you need to prepare for a worst case consequence. It's tempting to think getting laid is a solution. But a solution to what? It's a solution to your frustrated sexual needs. That's a big solution, so great as far as it goes, because sexual needs are needs, not wants. But you're still in a dead marriage, which is a roommate deal at best and hostile or even violent at worst. An affair may save your marriage in the sense of making it tolerable to continue living together. But it won't save your relationship. An affair may also be a solution to your frustrated need for emotional intimacy. Great, that's also a need not a want. But now the person who makes you feel whole and loved is someone who, as long as either of you are married, you can't have. You have to plan and sneak in order to be with the one who makes you emotionally fulfilled. If your lover is married, you are second fiddle, no matter how much they say they love you. And you will cease to exist if their spouse gets suspicious. One more rejection. So yes an affair can do you a lot of good, but it's usually not a solution to the fundamental problem of living in an ILIASM shithole. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 5, 2016 14:35:15 GMT -5
If you are having an affair with a person who is married, what are you taking that their spouse has a right to?
Sex.
But if their spouse is a refuser, you are taking something that he or she doesn't want in the first place.
My famous friend "Amy," who was anti-outsourcing, once compared it to driving somebody else's car without their permission. "You're upset because this other woman has a Mercedes and she doesn't even drive it. But it's still HER car, not yours."
Ah, the marriage-as-property concept. I replied, "Does anybody ever ask the car what he thinks?"
If I was involved with a man whose wife was a refuser, I wouldn't be taking anything away from her that she actually WANTS.
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Post by beachguy on Oct 5, 2016 18:49:04 GMT -5
If you are having an affair with a person who is married, what are you taking that their spouse has a right to? Sex. But if their spouse is a refuser, you are taking something that he or she doesn't want in the first place. My famous friend "Amy," who was anti-outsourcing, once compared it to driving somebody else's car without their permission. "You're upset because this other woman has a Mercedes and she doesn't even drive it. But it's still HER car, not yours." Ah, the marriage-as-property concept. I replied, "Does anybody ever ask the car what he thinks?" If I was involved with a man whose wife was a refuser, I wouldn't be taking anything away from her that she actually WANTS. And I'll bet Amy is s refuser .... |
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 5, 2016 19:09:25 GMT -5
If you are having an affair with a person who is married, what are you taking that their spouse has a right to? Sex. But if their spouse is a refuser, you are taking something that he or she doesn't want in the first place. My famous friend "Amy," who was anti-outsourcing, once compared it to driving somebody else's car without their permission. "You're upset because this other woman has a Mercedes and she doesn't even drive it. But it's still HER car, not yours." Ah, the marriage-as-property concept. I replied, "Does anybody ever ask the car what he thinks?" If I was involved with a man whose wife was a refuser, I wouldn't be taking anything away from her that she actually WANTS. Can't argue that! Don't want to either! Let me strengthen it instead. You are taking away something that a refuser wants. Their power, and control. |
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Post by obobfla on Oct 8, 2016 19:51:38 GMT -5
Consider my situation:
I am married to someone both physically and mentally ill. She can't and won't have sex. Yes, I can go into my room and whack off, but that isn't the same as being with a woman who finds me attractive and caring. I need that.
As to divorce, I can't afford it. I am essentially my wife's caretaker, and between the two of us, we can't afford to put her in a home. I would love to have an open marriage, but she would never consent to it. I hate the lying and sneaking involved in an affair (I have had two), but the confidence and companionship I get from them sustains me.
Right now, I have lost contact with my last AP. She is in North Georgia, and I am stuck in Florida. i have tried AM and OKStupid but haven't had much luck yet.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 9, 2016 1:36:51 GMT -5
Consider my situation: I am married to someone both physically and mentally ill. She can't and won't have sex. Yes, I can go into my room and whack off, but that isn't the same as being with a woman who finds me attractive and caring. I need that. As to divorce, I can't afford it. I am essentially my wife's caretaker, and between the two of us, we can't afford to put her in a home. I would love to have an open marriage, but she would never consent to it. I hate the lying and sneaking involved in an affair (I have had two), but the confidence and companionship I get from them sustains me. Right now, I have lost contact with my last AP. She is in North Georgia, and I am stuck in Florida. i have tried AM and OKStupid but haven't had much luck yet. She can't and won't. If she could, would she? |
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Post by baza on Oct 9, 2016 1:58:02 GMT -5
Brother obobfla,
As far as you know, what is your missus' position on divorce ?
Is her view like yours (against it, on financial grounds) ?
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I've probably asked this before (I can't recall) but have you seen a lawyer to see, theoretically, how that picture looks ?
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Post by obobfla on Oct 9, 2016 12:23:35 GMT -5
Consider my situation: I am married to someone both physically and mentally ill. She can't and won't have sex. Yes, I can go into my room and whack off, but that isn't the same as being with a woman who finds me attractive and caring. I need that. As to divorce, I can't afford it. I am essentially my wife's caretaker, and between the two of us, we can't afford to put her in a home. I would love to have an open marriage, but she would never consent to it. I hate the lying and sneaking involved in an affair (I have had two), but the confidence and companionship I get from them sustains me. Right now, I have lost contact with my last AP. She is in North Georgia, and I am stuck in Florida. i have tried AM and OKStupid but haven't had much luck yet. She can't and won't. If she could, would she? She might, but after all the rejection and stupid arguments for not having sex, I don't want her anymore. |
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Post by TMD on Oct 9, 2016 14:37:43 GMT -5
Meh. I don't think it's a good "article." It's an opinion, not based on research or fact.
At the end of the article, it reads, "Insofar as there might be a good kind of cheating, it would be the sort that would – without causing too much chaos or pain – quietly instruct us that it isn’t, in the end, worth it at all." Opinion.
I am a "cheater," which no matter how you argue it, is a word based on judgment and automatically disqualifies me from having any vailidity when it comes to doling out -- or rather, in my case, sharing my experiences -- relationship advice to anyone who sees me as a "cheater." I know this from experience because I have a "close" friend with whom I don't talk about my intimate personal life with anymore. She doesn't agree with my tactic to "cheat." Generally, however, with my close circle of friends, who know what is going on in my life, they don't call me a cheater. At least not to my face, they don't. We tend to have candid conversations about relationships and seem to respect each other, regardless of our feelings with respect to the morality, or lack thereof, of "cheating."
Yes, "cheating" comes with risks. And, yes, it's hurtful to the cheated on party. No arguing that. And for all of you who have known me in the nearly 4 years since I joined EP (the original ILIASM site), you'll know that I will always take responsibility for my actions. Should I need to address my, "cheating," ways with my STBX, I will.
Me and my affair partner are coming up to 4 years in a monogamous affair. Both of our spouses have no interest in sex. And I what I gained from, "cheating," is much what BBallGirl described. Phineas is not wrong to say that I was second fiddle. I definitely was in the first yearish of the "cheating." However, my affair partner's wife found out about me, and yet, nothing changed with us. And without any question, I haven't been second fiddle to the person he is legally married to (that's all it is) in many years. TBH, that's a judgment -- second fiddle -- that isn't true for all persons in affairs.
I don't feel the need to justify my choice to, "cheat," or why I continued for 4 years. What I can advise is read the book, "When Good People Have Affairs." There are 16-17 reasons. It's not a, "one size fits all," solution. And the book dispells the myth that, "once a cheater, always a cheater." Sure, some people are like that. But not all.
FWIW, "cheating" was SO worth it. I like the person I am today. And I'm REALLY looking forward to the person I will be in the future.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 9, 2016 16:17:25 GMT -5
Meh. I don't think it's a good "article." It's an opinion, not based on research or fact. At the end of the article, it reads, "Insofar as there might be a good kind of cheating, it would be the sort that would – without causing too much chaos or pain – quietly instruct us that it isn’t, in the end, worth it at all." Opinion. I am a "cheater," which no matter how you argue it, is a word based on judgment and automatically disqualifies me from having any vailidity when it comes to doling out -- or rather, in my case, sharing my experiences -- relationship advice to anyone who sees me as a "cheater." I know this from experience because I have a "close" friend with whom I don't talk about my intimate personal life with anymore. She doesn't agree with my tactic to "cheat." Generally, however, with my close circle of friends, who know what is going on in my life, they don't call me a cheater. At least not to my face, they don't. We tend to have candid conversations about relationships and seem to respect each other, regardless of our feelings with respect to the morality, or lack thereof, of "cheating." Yes, "cheating" comes with risks. And, yes, it's hurtful to the cheated on party. No arguing that. And for all of you who have known me in the nearly 4 years since I joined EP (the original ILIASM site), you'll know that I will always take responsibility for my actions. Should I need to address my, "cheating," ways with my STBX, I will. Me and my affair partner are coming up to 4 years in a monogamous affair. Both of our spouses have no interest in sex. And I what I gained from, "cheating," is much what BBallGirl described. Phineas is not wrong to say that I was second fiddle. I definitely was in the first yearish of the "cheating." However, my affair partner's wife found out about me, and yet, nothing changed with us. And without any question, I haven't been second fiddle to the person he is legally married to (that's all it is) in many years. TBH, that's a judgment -- second fiddle -- that isn't true for all persons in affairs. I don't feel the need to justify my choice to, "cheat," or why I continued for 4 years. What I can advise is read the book, "When Good People Have Affairs." There are 16-17 reasons. It's not a, "one size fits all," solution. And the book dispells the myth that, "once a cheater, always a cheater." Sure, some people are like that. But not all. FWIW, "cheating" was SO worth it. I like the person I am today. And I'm REALLY looking forward to the person I will be in the future. I am very anxious to read that book. So tell me, please, does the book also do justice in labeling our manipulative controlling, narcissistic, refusing spouses as cheaters too? Having cheated us out of years of marital sexual intimacy that was rightfully ours? |
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Post by TMD on Oct 9, 2016 19:31:27 GMT -5
greatcoastal , it's not a book about SMs. But the author discusses the many reasons people make the choices they do around cheating.
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Post by TMD on Oct 9, 2016 19:32:46 GMT -5
I often wonder about some people's tendency to use the term STBX when in reality they might never intend to divorce. It may be misleading. Are you referring to, "people," in general, or to me? I have only started using that acronym recently because it's a fact. |
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