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Post by csl on Oct 15, 2016 17:49:27 GMT -5
I agree with the Never Say Never BUT in most cases the turnaround is not sustainable, it's all an act to keep the refused spouse from leaving so that the refuser is not inconvenienced by a lifestyle change. We just had a thread by a refuser explaining exactly why it's not sustainable. Um.... Eight years. She fakes it good? Or maybe, just maybe that refuser is wrong. Or maybe the posts by these refusers: forgivenwife.com/resources/your-stories/(The three by a Janna Allen? A gatekeeper/refuser for 20 years.) I would ask why one refuser's statement is taken as gospel over the statements of others disproving her. |
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Post by baza on Oct 15, 2016 21:50:35 GMT -5
Mainly in here (and the old EP group) Brother csl, the stories are first hand.
Not second hand.
Not hearsay.
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That might explain what you refer to as "disproving".
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Any story that starts off with "I have this friend who - - - - -"
Or, "I know this bloke who - - - - - "
May or may not be factual.
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Personally, I find first hand stories, written by the members here about their factual experiences (or at least the facts as viewed from their perspective) have a ring of authenticity to them.
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Stories like - "I know this woman in a sexless deal who - - - -",
The writer is recounting what someone else said, and pre-supposses that what they were told is true.
What they were told may or may not be true.
The writer might also be putting their own spin on what they were told, and it may not represent what the person actually said at all.
Indeed the writer may be just wanting to promote their view of an issue and just making up a story to fit the point.
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So for me, second hand / hearsay stories are questionable.
First hand stories in here, for me, come across as the genuine article.
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If one wants to see a real account of aspects of ILIASM shitholes, just about every story in here is written by someone who is in, or was in, one.
Accounts of "a bloke I know in a sexless deal - - - " as told by someone else on their behalf, just don't have the same credibility, to me at least.
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By the way, I'm not claiming any high ground here. From time to time I have quoted things about people I know (outside of ILIASM in my real life) to provide an example on some point or other, in the full knowledge that it is hearsay.
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Post by csl on Oct 16, 2016 4:11:21 GMT -5
That's why I gave the link to first-hand stories. Plus FW's entire site is a first-hand story. Hence my challenge of absolutist statements like "Refusers never change" or "ah, she's just faking it."
People CAN change; but it takes a Damascus Road moment for it to be a real change. Like AA, I guess.
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Post by baza on Oct 16, 2016 4:45:38 GMT -5
I haven't read extensively in FW's site, so I'll take your word for it Brother csl.
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I have read very extensively in the old EP/ILIASM group - since Feb 2009 actually - and out of that, the instances of an ILIASM shithole turning around are abysmally few. Something like less than 10 out of 50,000+ members.
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I'd 'suspect' that the examples in FW are marriages that have not gone as far down the chute as the examples in EP/ILIASM and this group.
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Possibly the two groups attract a different demographic.
FW's might be "marriages heading for terminal dysfunction"
ILIASM's being "marriages that have reached terminal dysfunction"
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 7:11:02 GMT -5
That's why I gave the link to first-hand stories. Plus FW's entire site is a first-hand story. Hence my challenge of absolutist statements like "Refusers never change" or "ah, she's just faking it." People CAN change; but it takes a Damascus Road moment for it to be a real change. Like AA, I guess. And most people don't have Damascus road moments. They have "oh shit they're serious" moments. Which is why ILIASM shitholes don't change until there is an ultimatum. Then one may begin to enjoy the freely available bad duty sex and carry on in their repaired marriage. You can't make someone like sex!! |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 7:21:06 GMT -5
I haven't read extensively in FW's site, so I'll take your word for it Brother csl. - I have read very extensively in the old EP/ILIASM group - since Feb 2009 actually - and out of that, the instances of an ILIASM shithole turning around are abysmally few. Something like less than 10 out of 50,000+ members. - I'd 'suspect' that the examples in FW are marriages that have not gone as far down the chute as the examples in EP/ILIASM and this group. - Possibly the two groups attract a different demographic. FW's might be "marriages heading for terminal dysfunction" ILIASM's being "marriages that have reached terminal dysfunction" Or different kinds of people altogether. Some "sexless marriages" are just two people who still love each other and love sex who have let life overwhelm them to the point where they're just too tired or frustrated for a root. These marriages might be saved. The denizens of hell who stumble broken and bleeding into this little refuge are in an entirely different situation. These tormented souls are married to asexual, intimacy averse, passive aggressive, emotionally retarded, narcissistic, abusive, parasitic, and/or ________ fill in the blank spouses who fear sex, are apathetic about sex, or use sex to control or punish them. No, these totally dysfunctional psychotic relationships do not change. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 8:07:57 GMT -5
That's why I gave the link to first-hand stories. Plus FW's entire site is a first-hand story. Hence my challenge of absolutist statements like "Refusers never change" or "ah, she's just faking it." People CAN change; but it takes a Damascus Road moment for it to be a real change. Like AA, I guess. "Dealing with it all was our commitment to each other. Together, we overcame Tony’s 18-year addiction to pornography, the loss of a child at 18 weeks, debt in excess of $50,000, poor communication, lack of collective interests, and questioning trust. But, the key word here is “together." Look at two things here that are completely different than the ILIASM shitholes found in this forum: 1. They overcame two things: a. circumstances, which are not issues in the relationship itself, and therefore often can be and are overcome, and, b. the kind of relationship issues that scented candles and date nights might fix. They weren't trying to overcome an intimacy averse spouse or a spouse who uses sex as a weapon. Now, "Tony's 18 year addiction to pornography" may indicate intimacy aversion. I would ask though what this addiction consisted of. Did he keep naughty pictures on his phone? Or did he spend all his free time masturbating to Ron Jeremy videos eeeeeewww! at the expense of rooting his wife? Now, seeing as they opened the show with a minute long pitch for a Christian credit counseling service, I'm concluding that this is a Christian couple. I'll be very careful not to word this as a generalization, but many Christians have a forbidden fruit obsession with smut. Just as one firsthand example, when I was a Christian, I felt a very strong pull towards porn. And by the way I still wanted to root my wife. As may have been the case with Tony. But I felt very guilty about this and went through the whole sin/repent/rinse and repeat routine. And do you know what happened to this "pornography addiction" when I become an atheist? Meeeh, take it or leave it. So I suspect there is a little exaggeration about Tony's 18 year addiction to pornography. 2. Note very carefully the last word. Both of these people wanted a good sex life. ILIASM shithole refusers DON'T WANT a sex life at all. So I'm happy for this couple, even if Tony still occasionally takes a peek on X-Hamster, but they were not in an ILIASM shithole. |
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Post by csl on Oct 16, 2016 8:23:18 GMT -5
That's why I gave the link to first-hand stories. Plus FW's entire site is a first-hand story. Hence my challenge of absolutist statements like "Refusers never change" or "ah, she's just faking it." People CAN change; but it takes a Damascus Road moment for it to be a real change. Like AA, I guess. And most people don't have Damascus road moments. They have "oh shit they're serious" moments. Which is why ILIASM shitholes don't change until there is an ultimatum. Then one may begin to enjoy the freely available bad duty sex and carry on in their repaired marriage. You can't make someone like sex!! DING, DING, DING, DING!!!! And the man wins a cigar! Well, mostly true.  Which is why, on my blog, in my series about addressing sexless marriages, I talk about boundaries, ultimatums, and destroying facades. (my one caveat to your "without an ultimatum" is because of the Janna Allen posts, in the link above. No ultimatum, just realization of wrong.) |
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Post by csl on Oct 16, 2016 8:26:31 GMT -5
I haven't read extensively in FW's site, so I'll take your word for it Brother csl. - I have read very extensively in the old EP/ILIASM group - since Feb 2009 actually - and out of that, the instances of an ILIASM shithole turning around are abysmally few. Something like less than 10 out of 50,000+ members. - I'd 'suspect' that the examples in FW are marriages that have not gone as far down the chute as the examples in EP/ILIASM and this group. - Possibly the two groups attract a different demographic. FW's might be "marriages heading for terminal dysfunction" ILIASM's being "marriages that have reached terminal dysfunction" "not as far down the chute" - 25, 26, 28 years far enough? "different demographic" - yes. FW and I write for Christian audience. So amongst our lot, the threat of a divorce to a Good Christian Wife is really an earthquake. Plus we actually have scripture on our side, for having sex. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 9:30:48 GMT -5
And most people don't have Damascus road moments. They have "oh shit they're serious" moments. Which is why ILIASM shitholes don't change until there is an ultimatum. Then one may begin to enjoy the freely available bad duty sex and carry on in their repaired marriage. You can't make someone like sex!! DING, DING, DING, DING!!!! And the man wins a cigar! Well, mostly true. Which is why, on my blog, in my series about addressing sexless marriages, I talk about boundaries, ultimatums, and destroying facades. (my one caveat to your "without an ultimatum" is because of the Janna Allen posts, in the link above. No ultimatum, just realization of wrong.) An ultimatum will absolutely with 100% certainty change a marriage...if you mean it. The marriage will either become sexual or it will end. If you truly lay down an ultimatum you will no longer be in a sexless marriage. But yes whether an ultimatum is required is another question. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2016 12:43:25 GMT -5
phinheasgage,
You make a great point about an ultimatum. I hinted around and told my wife she would force me to cheat on her, if she did not meet my needs. This did nothing but cause her to get pissed. It did not change her attitude. After joining this forum, I put it all out there. I realized it's not going to get better especially reading peoples' stories on here.
Now, that I've stated the timeline and that I"ll have a good marriage with you or someone else. It's your choice but I'm not wasting anymore of my time. I've seen a subtle change in her behavior.
I have to say that things are running smoother in my household. The children are behaving and respect me. My daughter has told me that you've changed. I realized that It sounds funny to say but I've become the man of the house. I felt like such a weak person. My wife had me by my balls and I let it happen. These last couple of years I allowed myself to put up with it and to start playing the games. I'm ashamed to say it but I even thought about how I could manipulate her. It was desperation but in the end, I came to my senses.
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Post by greatcoastal on Oct 16, 2016 14:08:08 GMT -5
Um.... Eight years. She fakes it good? Or maybe, just maybe that refuser is wrong. Or maybe the posts by these refusers: forgivenwife.com/resources/your-stories/(The three by a Janna Allen? A gatekeeper/refuser for 20 years.) I would ask why one refuser's statement is taken as gospel over the statements of others disproving her. I've got to tell you, the article "Gate Keeper to Refuser and Back Again" is a homerun for describing my STBX. The part about being a lion , and the looking through my "I-Lens" is spot on. However, however, dealing with a manipulative controller, who's love language is "acts of service", only the strongest most severe ,tough love, " divorce" is going to begin to have an impact on any change. (yes, I believe in change, most of us change and give,give, give, changing our needs for the hope of a smidgen of getting back love through touch and admiration) One of my several a-hah moments was finding my wife reading, the book Boundaries. I asked her what it was about? She said, " It's teaching me to say NO." I thought, weird, you're good at that already!. Then ,later came her sisters nasty divorce. All we ever hear is her sisters side of what a narcissistic ,nasty, selfish, controlling, husband she had. Guess who my STBX clings to, and gets her advice from? Both these ladies where raised by a mother who is a manipulative controller. Her father left the marriage 9 yrs ago and lives with us. Both daughters blame the mother, claim they don"t want to be like her, while dominating, and ruling over their fathers life. Even he says, about my STBX, " she's the boss." ( the apple does not fall far from the tree). I also discovered an email sent to my STBX, years ago from her sister all about,"Saving your relationship by de-taching yourself". Basically making your husband come begging back for you, pleading for forgiveness, grovelling that he will change, and give in to your demands. Our therapists would throw his hands up in the air when dealing with my STBX's responses to sharing, giving, intimacy, to her wanting me to leave the house for a month! I could go on and on.................. |
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