Renewal of Vows: Opportunity Missed

mirrorchild: "My wife's clinical depression expresses as self-loathing to some degree and I'm under teh impression she knows her efforts are not meeting my preferences. If she could do better, I think she would. Depression stops you from acting on what you know to be wise courses of action. You know what you should do, but you can't force yourself to do it. Housework, doctors' appointments, sex... any of it."

I have suffered from major depression virtually all of my life. My life only turned around when I got on antidepressants about 14 years ago. I literally became a different person.

She's on them. She works full time. She thinks that shows she's not depressed enough to be concerned. 

What you are doing now is enabling your wife in not getting her depression treated. If she can't make a doctor's appointment to get her depression treated, you need to do it just like you'd do it if she were having a heart attack. Depression is that serious. Helping get to her appointments, too would be important as would your having a session with her doctor (with or without her) to describe how her depression has affected your marriage. If she flat out refuses to get treatment then that in itself could be reason to end the marriage. I do think that a spouse's refusal to get treatment for a medical problem that is impacting not only their life but also your life is grounds for divorce just like would if a spouse were an addict and refused to get treatment.

Still in denial that it's come to that. I largely have  alife outside of her now. I feel guilty for it (last vestiges of my co-dependency), but she doesn't object. It's a bit disturbing. That said, I have meant to ask her whether she'd mind my setting up an appointment for her, like you say. A therapist would surely understand someone calling in an appointment for a depressed person.

You can not take responsibility for managing her depression by not discussing problems with her. FWIW, when -- after getting on antidepressants and being in effective therapy for several years -- I had built a life that was happy and separate from my roommate refuser I asked for a divorce -- my h immediately accepted. It ended up he'd wanted out too, but hadn't told me what was going on in his head (even though I had repeatedly asked) because he was worried about my history of depression. Hell, my marriage, lack of sex, lack of connection with him was depressing. I wanted out, too, and would have happily agreed to a divorce if he had been honest with me.

So,....if she gets good meds and asks for divorce, I'd be inclined to cooperate, but offer to figure out what she's missing, if she'd like. I'd love for her to be happy, even if it means the D word. I'd first try informed outsourcing. I'd like to see if that could work. 

So, I don't think you are doing your wife any favors by pussyfooting around when it comes to your marriage. And who knows why she wanted a renewal of vows. You don't know because you never asked her. You've never talked about it. You didn't tell her why you didn't want the renewal either. You seem to be assuming that she just wants to repeat the old vows, but truth is that most marital vows contain "to have and to hold." Seems that a vow renewal could include pastoral counseling or other counseling to make sure you are both on the same page about what you're agreeing to.

Pastoral counseling would be a pretty good angle, actually. Everyone reading this thread take note! My wife hasn't set foot in a church in 20 years.
I went this past summer. I mean to go again. Not sure why I don't. So, no ready clergy to get her asking if having and holding means snuggling on the couch watchign Netflix, or something more.


mirrorchild: "We attended a wedding of two senior citizens and their vows were very unconventional. They mentioned dhow people change and with it the marriage will change. It was practical to the point of sterile. It was unnerving; a spoken sword of Damocles. I find it possible that such unromantic vows can be kept for the long haul, but these were not the vows spoken on the day most brides fantasized about in their youth. This was no Cinderella story.

I like those vows because I believe they reflect what the couple wants in their marriage. And truth is, marriages change, people change. Nothing remains the same in this world. To acknowledge that is to acknowledge that things that may or may not have been important when one first married, may be less or more important after being married for a while. I'd rather have vows reflecting that than the silly Cinderella stories that most people appear to believe in.

I've felt modern marriage could use some of this hard edge to it, yes. I blame Disney.

Mirrorchild, I think you would benefit from individual therapy. You have to be getting something personally out of not being direct with your wife and about staying so long and in a sexless marriage.

In February 2017, I was direct. Almost a "Talk". Nothing happened, so I dated. She reset.
We've not been sexless for over three years now. So, maybe I'm staying too long, but we're not sexless. Not now, and not for over 10% of our most recent years.
I don't want to leave her at all. It'd just be nice to add someone. If I can't though, at the moment, it's so much better than it was, I'm okay with it. It could change.
Would therapy get me to be less satisfied? More direct? Maybe. What would I be looking for? Weekly sex instead of every three weeks? 

My own experience was that my own fears of confrontation and of expressing my full sexuality contributed greatly to my picking a husband who was uncomfortable with sex and uncomfortable about talking about and expressing emotions. When I lost my own sexual inhibitions and felt that a full sex life was something I deserved, and when I lost my fears that if I were honest with him I'd somehow crush him, was when I was able to let go of a marriage that's dysfunction no longer served me.

He was afraid to crush you because you were the depressed one. I'm the one in his shoes. 
I crush her all the time. She crushes herself, taking everything I say as anger or criticism. Reluctantly believing me when I explain neither is the case.
Would she be alright if I left? As alright as she is now, I figure. Going to work, going straight to bed. I imagine that might stay the same.
Not sure how much different my life would be now that a lot of the co-dependency is gone. The guilt of neglect I have might magnify, perhaps. 
It's a silly thing to enjoy about a 25 year marriage, but societal approval for longevity is valuable to me. It shouldn't be, but is. 
Keeping my vows, every one of them, technically speaking matters to me. Like graduating college, having my kids, staying married 'til death is an accomplishment I meant to achieve. A stupid ambition? Maybe. It's one both of us have, though. She can't do it without me.
We got so much better in December 2019. Why would I leave now? I could get hit by a bus tomorrow and win the whole game.