|
|
Post by DryCreek on Mar 24, 2016 11:20:29 GMT -5
... or, "Desire is in the Eye of the Beholder"
That little quirk of theirs… is it endearing or irritating? Is that gesture romantic or creepy? Is someone flirting, or pressuring for sex? Is something exciting or frightening? Arousing or perverted?
So much is determined by how we choose to "receive" the world around us.
It usually sneaks up slowly, but one day a refuser no longer sees their spouse as desirable. Loving gestures don't come naturally anymore, and they start to receive their spouse's actions differently. Things that used to bring excitement to the relationship go unnoticed, or worse, they're seen as "pressuring"… reminders that their spouse is unhappy.
The trouble is, this is a two-way street. As much as we might try to be positive and keep the spark alive, constantly being refused eventually takes its toll on us… in ways we may not realize.
As time goes on, even in a relationship where "everything else is good", we're constantly reminded that intimacy with the refuser is wrong. And even though we stubbornly continue pushing for intimacy, our subconscious starts to see the refuser very differently.
The emotional bond deteriorates; a loss of "connectedness" creeps in; an inexplicable "distance" emerges. Some describe it as a lack of intimacy, a lack of romance, or that basic desire has vanished.
Then, one day we can't take it any more. We give up trying. At some point it becomes clear to the refuser that the game is over; we're planning to leave. A light bulb finally turns on in the refuser's mind.
Suddenly, it's like somebody flipped a switch… the refuser becomes affectionate and sexual. Sometimes gradually, sometimes dramatically - but they're trying! They might swear it's because we've changed, but really they're reacting in desperation. But damn it, they're finally giving us exactly what we've been begging for!
Except we don't want it! We don't even understand why; we're confused and conflicted. The tables have turned and now we're the refuser! But to make matters worse, we still have our libido - we still want romance, intimacy, and sex… we just don't want it with our spouse. It feels unnatural with them, maybe even perverse.
Early on, a regular fuck actually *would* have fixed the problem. But as time goes on, the damage compounds and the repair job becomes exponentially harder. Meanwhile, we got stuck in a groove campaigning for regular sex, not realizing that train had left the station. The spark has been fully snuffed out, and simply restoring things as they were does not fix the problem now.
The problem is, they refused us for so long that somewhere along the way our attitude changed toward them. Except many of us didn't see it sneak up - we've been distracted by trying to salvage the marriage. Then one day the refuser makes a turnaround, and it's then we discover we don't actually want the change we've been fighting for all this time. At least not with the refuser.
And so, I'm beginning to think that refusing is a dangerously slippery slope - it starts a cascade of changes that ultimately become overwhelming. It progresses to a point where climbing back up the slope just isn't worth the effort, and even then it's just for a partial recovery. At some point it becomes far smarter to dust yourself off and just walk on down the road instead. And coming to accept this truth is perhaps the hardest part of a sexless marriage.
I find myself in this very boat today, and it's disturbing. For 20 years I continued to press for a physical relationship in the face of heartbreaking indifference. Now, after a "wake-up call" event, suddenly W *wants* sex. But I can't trust that she's being genuine; I *know* it's purely reactive, whether she realizes it or not. And worse… I can't enjoy it; it feels wrong. WTF? I don't want sex?!
No… I still want sex. And passion. Intimacy. Romance. Kissing. Touching. Flirting. All the desires that W has conditioned me to suppress with her. Not surprisingly, she still doesn't want those things. And I'm tired of trying to climb back up the slope.
DC
[Originally posted Jan 11, 2011]
|
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Mar 24, 2016 11:29:59 GMT -5
DryCreek: thank you VERY MUCH for pulling this forward. This and a small handful of others are among what I consider the seminal posts of EP ILIASM.
|
|
|
|
Post by Rhapsodee on Mar 27, 2016 19:16:43 GMT -5
Thank you, DC. You just released me from self condemnation. He has been showing signs of wanting to connect with me again. He's asking if I like his hair cut or what he's wearing or if he should do more push ups. He also reaches out to touch me in the night stroking down my body or holding my hand or feet touching. I'm afraid he will want to be intimate. The thought repulses me. I know how bad it will be. I feel like a hypocrite because I was so dramatic about it for so long. Now the thought of him touching me is distasteful. A year ago I had decided that I didn't want him anymore and let it go. Close friendships on EP helped me to do this. It's so confusing.
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Mar 27, 2016 20:01:35 GMT -5
Thank you, DC. You just released me from self condemnation. He has been showing signs of wanting to connect with me again. He's asking if I like his hair cut or what he's wearing or if he should do more push ups. He also reaches out to touch me in the night stroking down my body or holding my hand or feet touching. I'm afraid he will want to be intimate. The thought repulses me. I know how bad it will be. I feel like a hypocrite because I was so dramatic about it for so long. Now the thought of him touching me is distasteful. A year ago I had decided that I didn't want him anymore and let it go. Close friendships on EP helped me to do this. It's so confusing. Sounds like the making of a re-set. Just o stay in control. Will you have the same emotions, fears that others including myself went through? Is this real? How long will this last? I don't have any more trust! It took everything in me to guard my open heart, now this! You have every right to guard your heart. Put him on the spot, ask your questions, retreat, refocus, reload, gather more troops ( talking with us) gain ground for the next battle. Happy Easter friend! |
|
|
|
Post by Dan on Mar 27, 2016 20:26:20 GMT -5
... I'm afraid he will want to be intimate. The thought repulses me. I know how bad it will be. I feel like a hypocrite because I was so dramatic about it for so long. Now the thought of him touching me is distasteful. A year ago I had decided that I didn't want him anymore and let it go. Close friendships on EP helped me to do this. It's so confusing. I'm almost exactly at the same point! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2016 21:40:06 GMT -5
They do that! When you're hurting and asking for it...practically demeaning yourself to get their attention and their love...they won't.
So then, for your own peace of mind, you accept that you're not going to get what you want. You give up on them, and turn your attention to other things.
THEN they want you all of a sudden.
When this has happened more than once, you can be fairly certain it's just a reset and things are not going to get better in a permanent basis.
Fuck resets (she said ironically.) If I have given up on you, know that it is because you broke my heart and I'm tired of having my heart broken. Giving up on you was self-preservation, and a sign of mental health. So, reset me no "resets."
|
|
|
|
Post by Rhapsodee on Mar 29, 2016 7:08:52 GMT -5
I don't believe in reset. He is who he is. If he had been a passionate, playful, adventurous lover before we became sexless, I'd have hope.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 30, 2016 13:37:26 GMT -5
"Suddenly, it's like somebody flipped a switch… the Refuser becomes affectionate and sexual. Sometimes gradually, sometimes dramatically - but they're trying! They might swear it's because we've changed, but really they're reacting in desperation. But damn it, they're finally giving us exactly what we've been begging for!"
I understand that this might happen in some sexless marriages. But if it does I can't imagine that it pertains to both sexes. For a man to lose sexual desire for his wife then suddenly get it back if she threatens to leave goes against the biology of male sexual desire and sexual functioning.
Unlike a woman, if a man has no sexual desire he cannot physically have intercourse. This is simply a physiological fact of life. He could eat a bucketful of Viagra and it wouldn't do a thing without sexual desire. So for a man to lose sexual desire and then will it back into existence again out of fear that his wife will leave him is pretty far fetched. I suppose if he just pretended he didn't have any sexual desire for her for some reason then perhaps he could suddenly start having sexual intercourse again, but this is a pretty bizarre scenario if you think about it.
The ability of a man to get and keep an erection during sex is extremely sensitive and dependent on desire and state of mind. Erections are very easily lost due to a lack of sexual attraction/desire, depression or anxiety, especially intimacy anxiety. (I am not including physical causes of erectile problems- diabetes, heart disease, blood pressure, some medications etc, as this is something totally different) Those who believe a man is up for sex 24/7 do a great disservice to those men who find it difficult or impossible to perform sexually due to psychological reasons.
|
|
|
|
Post by samedeepwater on May 2, 2016 10:19:59 GMT -5
When my ex slammed the door, she did it finally and unequivocally. Maybe that makes me different from some in this group. There was never any reset sex, or any pretensions to intimacy at all. Though for a long while after, I would have taken whatever affection she may have thrown my way. In hindsight, I hate that I was that needy during that time, but after our talk, and our decision to separate, it made perfect sense that I had outgrown my "usefulness" to her.
"So much is determined by how we choose to "receive" the world around us." (I can quote without even using the button) Even in the days when we were still going through the motions, I was starting to lose my desire for her. I no longer subscribed to the old saw that bad sex is better than no sex at all. Sex with no emotion is empty and emasculating. And you do get tired. So very tired. I never had the chance to become the refuser, but at the end, I would have refused. I had already started my journey out, and wasn't looking back. But the desire for intimacy is a mixed blessing as well. Now I feel all dressed up with no place to go.
|
|
|
|
Post by unmatched on May 2, 2016 18:26:56 GMT -5
Unlike a woman, if a man has no sexual desire he cannot physically have intercourse. This is simply a physiological fact of life. He could eat a bucketful of Viagra and it wouldn't do a thing without sexual desire. So for a man to lose sexual desire and then will it back into existence again out of fear that his wife will leave him is pretty far fetched. I suppose if he just pretended he didn't have any sexual desire for her for some reason then perhaps he could suddenly start having sexual intercourse again, but this is a pretty bizarre scenario if you think about it. I agree with you that there is a difference and it is harder for a man to have duty sex. But where we are talking about a sudden surge of interest when the partner is walking out the door, I think in a lot of cases that is quite real. I think they genuinely want to reconnect and even feel horny again. That is what makes it such a headfuck. Because it is real, and you can feel it is real, and then when they feel comfortable again it will just evaporate away like it was never there. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 2, 2016 19:32:47 GMT -5
I guess a man could suddenly get it back. But just going by my own experience once I would lose sexual desire for a woman I would completely shut down sexually and it was permanent. She could offer me millions of dollars to have one last go and it would be simply impossible to function sexually with her. As a matter of fact I would often lose this desire for a partner right in the middle of intercourse and everything would come to a screeching halt and I would need to gather my clothes and get the hell out of there as soon as possible. I have left many a confused woman sitting on the side of the bed scratching her head wondering what the hell happened. Getting back the desire was never an option.
|
|
|
|
Post by angryspartan on May 3, 2016 10:30:21 GMT -5
It's difficult to get it back, but I believe it's possible if the refuser convinces you their change of heart is genuine.
|
|
|
|
Post by Chatter Fox on May 5, 2016 20:47:20 GMT -5
... or, "Desire is in the Eye of the Beholder"That little quirk of theirs… is it endearing or irritating? Is that gesture romantic or creepy? Is someone flirting, or pressuring for sex? Is something exciting or frightening? Arousing or perverted? So much is determined by how we choose to "receive" the world around us.It usually sneaks up slowly, but one day a refuser no longer sees their spouse as desirable. Loving gestures don't come naturally anymore, and they start to receive their spouse's actions differently. Things that used to bring excitement to the relationship go unnoticed, or worse, they're seen as "pressuring"… reminders that their spouse is unhappy. The trouble is, this is a two-way street. As much as we might try to be positive and keep the spark alive, constantly being refused eventually takes its toll on us… in ways we may not realize. As time goes on, even in a relationship where "everything else is good", we're constantly reminded that intimacy with the refuser is wrong. And even though we stubbornly continue pushing for intimacy, our subconscious starts to see the refuser very differently. The emotional bond deteriorates; a loss of "connectedness" creeps in; an inexplicable "distance" emerges. Some describe it as a lack of intimacy, a lack of romance, or that basic desire has vanished. Then, one day we can't take it any more. We give up trying. At some point it becomes clear to the refuser that the game is over; we're planning to leave. A light bulb finally turns on in the refuser's mind. Suddenly, it's like somebody flipped a switch… the refuser becomes affectionate and sexual. Sometimes gradually, sometimes dramatically - but they're trying! They might swear it's because we've changed, but really they're reacting in desperation. But damn it, they're finally giving us exactly what we've been begging for! Except we don't want it! We don't even understand why; we're confused and conflicted. The tables have turned and now we're the refuser! But to make matters worse, we still have our libido - we still want romance, intimacy, and sex… we just don't want it with our spouse. It feels unnatural with them, maybe even perverse. Early on, a regular fuck actually *would* have fixed the problem. But as time goes on, the damage compounds and the repair job becomes exponentially harder. Meanwhile, we got stuck in a groove campaigning for regular sex, not realizing that train had left the station. The spark has been fully snuffed out, and simply restoring things as they were does not fix the problem now. The problem is, they refused us for so long that somewhere along the way our attitude changed toward them. Except many of us didn't see it sneak up - we've been distracted by trying to salvage the marriage. Then one day the refuser makes a turnaround, and it's then we discover we don't actually want the change we've been fighting for all this time. At least not with the refuser. And so, I'm beginning to think that refusing is a dangerously slippery slope - it starts a cascade of changes that ultimately become overwhelming. It progresses to a point where climbing back up the slope just isn't worth the effort, and even then it's just for a partial recovery. At some point it becomes far smarter to dust yourself off and just walk on down the road instead. And coming to accept this truth is perhaps the hardest part of a sexless marriage. I find myself in this very boat today, and it's disturbing. For 20 years I continued to press for a physical relationship in the face of heartbreaking indifference. Now, after a "wake-up call" event, suddenly W *wants* sex. But I can't trust that she's being genuine; I *know* it's purely reactive, whether she realizes it or not. And worse… I can't enjoy it; it feels wrong. WTF? I don't want sex?! No… I still want sex. And passion. Intimacy. Romance. Kissing. Touching. Flirting. All the desires that W has conditioned me to suppress with her. Not surprisingly, she still doesn't want those things. And I'm tired of trying to climb back up the slope. DC
[Originally posted Jan 11, 2011]OMG!!!! Spot... on!!! I am so there!!! Thank you God, someone else gets it. I feel EXACTLY as this states. I couldn't have elaborated it so wonderfully. |
|
|
|
Post by baza on May 13, 2016 20:16:10 GMT -5
Avoidant spouses spouses are banking on being able to control an uncontrollable commodity - marital sexual expression.
They use the tactic of withholding marital sexual expression to keep you at a distance they regard as comfortable.
Not too close, lest they lose control of the relationship.
Not too far, lest they drive you out of the relationship.
They play with fire in this regard, because this is not a controllable commodity.
Every refusal has an accumulating effect (even if there is some tawdry 're-set sex' thrown in from time to time).
Every refusal pushes you that little bit further away, imperceptibly and hardly noticeable at the time.
Every refusal moves you closer to where the bond breaks.
It is a slow and painful road to that point, but that is as sure as shit where it is going.
Of course this is NOT what the avoidant spouse planned or wanted.
All they wanted was to keep you at a comfortable (for them) distance, NOT drive you away altogether.
After all, you are useful to have around as a social accessory / financier / "bit" player in the facade.
Whereas they don't "want" you, they DO "want you around", but only on their terms.
Marital sexual expression is not a controllable commodity.
Avoidant spouses who treat it as a controllable commodity are playing with fire.
It will, eventually, drive the spouse away altogether.
That does not necessarily mean "out of the marriage" (though often it does mean exactly that) but it does mean that to all intents and purposes, the marriage is toast.
You know when you have arrived at that station when, as DryCreek (above) noted, that when some tawdry re-set sex is offered up, "we don't want it"
Of course then, the questions just get harder.
|
|
|
|
Post by obobfla on May 13, 2016 20:21:46 GMT -5
After all this time of ignoring my needs, you want yours met? Fuck you! Better yet, don't fuck you!
|
|
