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Post by bballgirl on Aug 8, 2017 17:59:43 GMT -5
I get the depression and not being as productive at work. I experienced some of that when I was on EP my last year or two of marriage. Be careful with falling too low for too long. We all have ups and downs and good days and bad days but monitor and be self aware of your mood and productivity. I started focusing on myself more by exercising, taking mental health days at work, outsourcing, socializing with friends, the forum, etc. As far as communication with your wife- I get wanting to avoid drama. However I would not always avoid a frank civilized conversation with her about the "State of the Marriage" sort of like the "State of the Union" whether that is once or twice a year. Something to the tune of; 1) This marriage is not normal 2) We don't have a healthy relationship 3) I'm not a happy husband 4) This relationship has a shelf life - I don't see us growing old together after the kids are grown
Not sure if your wife works but you might want to encourage her to work.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 8, 2017 19:38:27 GMT -5
@bball girl. Resounding yes to everything you have said. One of the benefits of journaling publicly is that you are held to account and get tough medicine when you need it. I really appreciate your kind words and Im especially grateful that Ive met all the great people like yourself on this forum. We are a kindred spirit us all. We are united not just by the unfortunate experience of SMs and the suffering that comes with it, but also by the fact that we place value on intimacy and what that intimacy means to our existence.
I like the concept of the state of the marriage talk. In my case it comes out slowly in epidsodes instead of all at once. They are that intense that it needs to be broken into episodes.Lol no binge-ing.
I dont understand why she likes to have these intense talks in front of the kids though. But as opposed to trying to discourage her from "discussing" in front of the kids, this most recent discussion I calmly told her that I was glad that SHE chose to speak in front of the kids because they might see that when you act a certain way there are consequences, even if it means having difficult discussions. I dont think she saw that one coming.
From some recent events, it sounds like she has been working on an exit plan herself. I have firmly decided to go on the college plan. This has two meaningful implications. I wont be having sex anymore with W probably ever. Secondly, and more selfishly, an important announcement: Ladies, the bar is now open. Come in and stay awhile to talk.
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Post by mrslowmaintenance on Aug 9, 2017 0:11:14 GMT -5
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 11, 2017 4:47:50 GMT -5
Hi northstarmomThank you for the feedback. Communication is a life long challenge for me. Its much better than when I was younger but still a work in progress. The expression of thought, the selection of words, the delivery, the body language, all of it does not come naturally and it requires a significant amount of deliberate emotional and mental energy from me to communicate in an effective and productive manner. Still this is not a cop out but an aknowledgement that its an area that requires work. I wholeheartedly agree with your statements below. Its a challenge for me and for W. For me because of my upbringing and programming and my general distaste for relationship drama. For her because the emotion tends to take over and there is name calling and vicious arguments to parphrase what you said. "I've tried to be deliberately mindful of direct comments and confrontation. Not because they make me uncomfortable, but because I wanted a drama-less relationship." Direct comments allow clearer communication. Indirect comments -- hints-- can go over people's head or lead to problems' festering.. Direct comments are not the same as name calling or being viciously argumentative. Statements like, "I would like," or "I don't like" or, "I feel angry or confused when you" are direct comments. Avoiding speaking directly could also inadvertently gmteachvkuds that disagreement is wrong even though disagreements are a natural byproduct of relationships. What is helpful to model is how to resolve the inevitable disagreements.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 11, 2017 5:16:17 GMT -5
Just a quick post this morning to express gratitude.
I went back and read everything in this thread. What to say?
My first thought is that its hard to believe that I only started writing a month ago. Its feels more like 6 months.
I am absolutely amazed at the whipsaw change in emotions in just a few weeks. No wonder I feel emotionally exhausted. Im glad that I captured it and can go back to examine it. Im thinking of tracking my mood daily. It might be useful to correlate that to the thoughts in my journaling. It also make me wonder if the constant swing somehow drives or drains the intensity of sexual energy and libido. Im certain there is a relationship there.
Most importantly though, this post is about gratitude. Gratitude to my wife and kids who somehow put up with my moods. Gratitude to this forum for allowing a place for reflection and discussion. I feel I have learned so much from the collective wisdom of this special group. It feels like some of the fog has lifted. It has helped clarify my thoughts. It has helped me find my voice to speak with W. My hope is that many others can find this beacon in the vast ocean of distraction that is the internet. There is real magic here and the people that have put the effort into the forum should absolutley be proud of themselves for creating an oasis of support and fellowship for troubled souls such as myself.
And for those that have reached out and commented. A special thank you for taking an interest and making me feel not so alone. I am privileged to have met many special people here and I hope to meet many more of you as our journeys evolve. If you have something to say or want to reach out, please do so. I cherish the interaction.
A lot has happened on the homefront in the last few days that I am still processing. Certainly a breakthrough of sorts in communication with W. I wouldnt go so far as to say its a turning point, but it does feel like something has changed for the better. I will post about that soon once I find the time and the right words.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 13, 2017 23:37:51 GMT -5
So wife and I had a really big argument the other day. The topic of the argument itself wasn’t really a huge deal, but the argument did lead to some breakthroughs in the communication barrier. During the argument W pulled a lot of DARVO mindfuck. But again I just stood my ground. Calmly telling her that if she was going to play that way, she better be ready for consequences because I wasn’t in the mood for bullshit. She was really flying off the handle. It was evident that she again feels the dynamic changing, the floor shifting beneath her feet and she is confused about it. She reacted badly. The discussion started innocently enough at one of my kids outings but continued as we drove home. By the time I pulled into the driveway she was livid. On my part there were no insults, no raising of voice, just simply stood my ground. After I dropped my wife and daughter off, I left to pick up my son who was somewhere else.
While driving to pick up my son, in my mind I replayed the discussion, patted myself on the back and made up my mind to go cool off by having a beer or two later at the local pub where I get to flirt with the cute waitress who knows I tip well ;-)
After I picked up my son and returned home, I changed clothes and was getting ready to head out to the pub for beers when my wife called me from our room. I rolled my eyes, sighed and went in for round 2. Instead, I get the shock of my life. She apologized. She pointed out that she was upset I made a big deal out of nothing. WTF??? I responded that if it wasn’t such a big deal, why the total freak out. She had nothing to say to that. Then she asked if I was trying to break up the marriage. BOOM. Ok now we are getting somewhere. Again I calmly I told her that I think about leaving a lot. A LOT. That the reason I don’t leave is because I don’t think I deserve to see my kids the every other weekend, they certainly dont need the disruption, and I certainly don’t want some other dude playing dad to my kids. She asked why I thought about leaving and I told her I wasn’t happy. I told her that I was done being the nice guy, patient guy, tolerant guy because it clearly hasn’t worked. She looked away when I said this. I told her that she really acts fucked up sometimes and I was done with being patient with her. I don’t care at this point if she wants to change or not, but she better be ready for consequences for her actions. She then told me that maybe she should leave. That if she wasn’t making me happy she should be the one to leave. For a second I thought about not holding back my smile. My response was that she needs to do what is best for her and only she could make that decision. I told her life is too short to be angry and resentful and I was too young to live that way so I am going to look out for my own happiness. She asked me if I outsourced. Specifically if I was was going with pro action on the side. I was insulted by this because I am not one to pay. I don’t judge. To each his own. But pros are not my thing. Never have been. I responded emphatically that it wasn’t my thing and I remarked that I was insulted that she would think that. I also had to bite my tongue to keep from listing off one by one all the potential AP’s encountered in the last 6 months so why would I pay. Then she asked coyly what I need to be happy. Now this was the setup. At this point I understood that she needed to get off. So I told her that I needed to fuck a lot.A LOT. Like everyday would not be a lot. I told her that this is something I thought she would have processed by now. That it was something that was there from the beginning for us. One thing led to another. I got a bj, we had sex. She got off first. Once she was done I didn’t want to get off but she insisted. It was ok sex. She drove the action for the most part. It was clearly for her to get off. I honestly felt like the starfish lying there. Even thought it was fairly enjoyable, it felt like reset. The strong bonding I normally feel was not there for me. So I was confused. Even felt guilty about having the sex and not feeling close. After we were done, I dressed and went out for my beer and flirted with the waitress as I had planned. No cuddling, no fucks given. I slept in a separate room that night like I have been doing for the last 3 months or so. Over the next few days we had sex a few more times. Each time initiated by me. I am not sure even why. I guess I was testing the waters and I was horny. It was all very confusing for me. Needless to say the sex was not good. Each time, I felt we were on different levels. I was looking for intimacy, she was clearly looking only for orgasm. While she seemed to be enjoying it judging by the reactions, something about it seemed rushed. Thats the way it seemed to me. Textbook reset, right?
So I am still somewhat confused about all this. I feel relieved that we had an adult conversation about the relationship. So there is more communicating, less tension in our interactions. Situation normal, right? Well, after a about a week of thinking on it. I don’t trust it. I am not going to rock the boat but I cannot help but feel this is sketchy. I am sure she thinks everything is now fine or at least better. And that bothers me. Am I being cynical or too passive aggressive by acting like nothing is up?
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Post by DryCreek on Aug 14, 2017 1:43:44 GMT -5
TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo, rough impression... if you told her you needed more sex, and she's giving more sex (passionless or run & gun as it may be), she may rightly believe that she's addressing your complaint. First, if she's only reacting to a perceived threat, it's questionable how sustainable it'll be. Second, if what you really need is intimacy, passion, emotional connection, etc. then you'd be right to adjust her expectation for both of your sakes.
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Post by baza on Aug 14, 2017 3:26:12 GMT -5
In light of these recent significant developments - and if I was your missus - I would be seeing a lawyer on the quiet, and putting together an exit strategy at this time, given that the winds of change appear to be picking up. That would be the smart play for her. And from what you have written about her, she doesn't come across as being dumb, nor the sort of person who is likely to ignore the fact that the dynamic is shifting.
You *could* choose to take a punt on her not doing any of the above - or - you could choose to be prepared for a hard landing here yourself.
It's your call.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 14, 2017 7:51:51 GMT -5
The wisdom and perspective on this board are spot on. You have articulated much better than I what I was attempting to drive at. Im dreading the discussion. But a reset in expectation is still needed. Im also feeling a lot of guilt and confusion about the lack of connectedness. Something seems off. I cant help but feel that maybe the lack of connectedness is my doing. The lack of sex is a response to that. Lots of work to do on my part there. Why am I disconnecting? A friend asked me what my wife is not getting that she is not willing to have sex. Connection is the answer. I now ask myself what I am not getting that I am not connecting. Maybe I was using sex as the excuse. Sorry if I ramble. Its clearly a projection of my emotions. TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo , rough impression... if you told her you needed more sex, and she's giving more sex (passionless or run & gun as it may be), she may rightly believe that she's addressing your complaint. First, if she's only reacting to a perceived threat, it's questionable how sustainable it'll be. Second, if what you really need is intimacy, passion, emotional connection, etc. then you'd be right to adjust her expectation for both of your sakes.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 14, 2017 8:01:42 GMT -5
Thanks once again Baza for your interest and the practical wisdom. I fully agree that my wife is thinking through the outcomes and the possibilities. And you are perceptive. She is wicked smart (hey she chose me right ;-) I give 50/50 odds on my wife pulling the trigger on an exit. Part of it is cultural and the social stigma associated with divorce. Parts of it are things like, is the dysfunction "bad enough" to warrant the mess to come. Marriages are ghastly things to unwind financially and logistically. And there is significant merit in keeping the family unit together. And yet, I know my wife is going through the iterations in her head. I guess Im acknowdging that dragging my feet on the exit plan is not in my best interest. In light of these recent significant developments - and if I was your missus - I would be seeing a lawyer on the quiet, and putting together an exit strategy at this time, given that the winds of change appear to be picking up. That would be the smart play for her. And from what you have written about her, she doesn't come across as being dumb, nor the sort of person who is likely to ignore the fact that the dynamic is shifting. You *could* choose to take a punt on her not doing any of the above - or - you could choose to be prepared for a hard landing here yourself. It's your call.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 14, 2017 13:19:58 GMT -5
Even felt guilty about having the sex and not feeling close. Do you think you might have felt guilty about engaging in sex that you know she didn't want with you? It can really fuck with your mind, that capitulation. Consider, if it felt guilty for you, how resentful and demonic it must have appeared to her. Run that software a few times and see what monster arises later on, when this interaction is characterized to her girlfriends, or your counselor. You can come to detest your own sexuality as much as she does.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 13:29:15 GMT -5
I think, ultimately, you are proving the point that many of us are still learning - it's not really about the sex. It's about the intimacy, emotional first, then physical. You can have sex with anyone. But if it lacks intimacy, you ultimately feel like you just ate a meal of empty calories. It seemed to satisfy in the moment, but when all was said and done, you were still hungry for something.
It's cliche, but all the article and books and therapists will tell you: the lack of sex is just a symptom of a much bigger problem - lack of intimacy. Figure out how to build that and you'll have a gold mine.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 14, 2017 13:57:30 GMT -5
I think, ultimately, you are proving the point that many of us are still learning - it's not really about the sex. It's about the intimacy, emotional first, then physical. You can have sex with anyone. But if it lacks intimacy, you ultimately feel like you just ate a meal of empty calories. It seemed to satisfy in the moment, but when all was said and done, you were still hungry for something. It's cliche, but all the article and books and therapists will tell you: the lack of sex is just a symptom of a much bigger problem - lack of intimacy. Figure out how to build that and you'll have a gold mine. Well stated, it both is-and isn't-about the sex. Sex is the ultimate expression (to some of us) of a loving, trusting and open relationship. No wonder it ties us up in knots. "Sex without love is a meaningless experience, but as far as meaningless experiences go it's pretty damn good." - Woody Allen
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 14, 2017 22:06:46 GMT -5
Your comments struck a chord. She wanted sex alright. I can tell when she wants sex. But it wasnt driven by desire. It seemed more like checking boxes. In the final analysis, maybe its the same thing. And you are right. Knowing that this was just checking boxes motivated the guilt. What felt really strange was that when I tried to fully express myself sexually by talking to her during sex or doing little things here and there, it did not feel like she welcomed it. Even felt guilty about having the sex and not feeling close. Do you think you might have felt guilty about engaging in sex that you know she didn't want with you? It can really fuck with your mind, that capitulation. Consider, if it felt guilty for you, how resentful and demonic it must have appeared to her. Run that software a few times and see what monster arises later on, when this interaction is characterized to her girlfriends, or your counselor. You can come to detest your own sexuality as much as she does.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Aug 14, 2017 22:28:02 GMT -5
..empty calories yes. Good way to describe I think, ultimately, you are proving the point that many of us are still learning - it's not really about the sex. It's about the intimacy, emotional first, then physical. You can have sex with anyone. But if it lacks intimacy, you ultimately feel like you just ate a meal of empty calories. It seemed to satisfy in the moment, but when all was said and done, you were still hungry for something. It's cliche, but all the article and books and therapists will tell you: the lack of sex is just a symptom of a much bigger problem - lack of intimacy. Figure out how to build that and you'll have a gold mine.
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