After reading some threads about "The Talk"
Adding a post with highlights from threads about "The Talk". Will add posts as I find them.
iliasm.org/post/62454
mrslowmaintenance
May 14, 2017 at 6:42pm
I usually wait until our little one is asleep, then I either tell him I want to talk tonight while he is playing his games or I wait until we are in bed. While we are laying in bed with each other I can still talk (and he communicates well verbally) but since the lights are off he can't see my facial expressions. This may sound like a bad thing, but I wear my emotions on my sleeve, so f he says something that may be hurtful it is not so damn obvious, this helps us be able to keep talking about it without him shutting down for fear of hurting my feelings. It also lets me be upset, I can have the hurt on my face without bottling it up. |
unmatched
May 15, 2017 at 8:37pm
...I am also no longer sure that lack of communication is the root of most of our problems. I think in the early days it is probably true that we are often not vocal enough about how we feel, and things tend to go too far before they are actually talked about. But I don't know how many of us here could honestly say that our partners don't know how we feel, or that we don't know how they feel. If there is an issue it is more like a mutual unwillingness to face up to the truth. They don't want to admit that they really don't want to have sex with us any more, and we don't want to admit that either. So we pussy foot around the issue, talking about frequency and emotional bonding and housework and date nights and every other possible sidetrack under the sun that we can think of. But this is not a lack of communication. Both partners are communicating very clearly that we are not happy with the way things are but are not yet ready to deal head on with the shitty situation we find ourselves in.
...(SAME PAGE)...
baza
May 15, 2017 at 9:57pm
Refusers are generally very good communicators.
They usually leave you in no doubt whatsoever that they don't want to engage you sexually.
Often times, the communication break down is in the refused spouses inability to receive (and interpret) the very clear communication the refuser spouse is transmitting.
Sometimes, the refuser spouse has to transmit the message that they do not want to engage you sexually many many many times before the refused spouse "get's it".
And sometimes, the refused spouse still doesn't get it, and never will.
*Good communication* is not reliant on you hearing what you want to hear.
*Good communication* is as often as not hearing what you do NOT want to hear.
Someone telling you unequivocally by word and/or deed that they don't want to engage you sexually might not be a very welcome piece of communication, but it still is *good communication*
The refused spouse may not *like* the communication, but that does not invalidate the truth of the message.
iliasm.org/post/74692
Aug 3, 2017 at 10:37pm northstarmom said:
Sounds like you're trying to teach a blind man to take pleasure in seeing rainbows. In other words, sounds like your husband asexual. You aren't being selfish by trying to explain the joys of sex to him. However, you are not allowing yourself to see him for who he is. Someone who equates sexual passion with the passion of having similar hobbies is not capable of providing you with the kind of mutually enjoyable, passionate sex you want. Counseling can't change him into being a person who feels lust. Counseling, however, could help you understand the fundamental sexual incompatibility between you and your husband and whether it's worth it to you to continue the marriage.
Aug 4, 2017 at 5:06am, h said:
I agree that he may never feel passionate about sex but if he loves her, he should feel passionate about making her feel loved. She has clearly stated what she needs in order to feel loved and cared for. Now it's up to him to decide if he is willing to do what it takes to accomplish this. I compare it to my W and her need for flowers. If I bought them and then tossed them at her and said "There, you happy now?" it wouldn't make her feel loved. The point isn't the action, it's the attitude conveyed with the action. If he can't make sex an act of love for the happiness of the woman he claims to love, just going through the motions isn't enough.
northstarmom
Aug 4, 2017 at 7:43am
H, making passionate love is an expression of feeling lust. It can't be compared to giving flowers. My refuser ex gave me flowers. When he accidentally walked in our bedroom and saw me naked, he said, "excuse me," and walked out.
When this morning, my post sm lover saw my naked breasts, his eyes widened and he said, "pretty tits' he caresses my breasts in his sleep. He also gives me flowers but that expression of love isn't all he gives me. He lusts after me, enjoys touching me and giving me sexual pleasure while I do the same for him.
It's not something either of us has to force ourselves to do. The idea is laughable that our passionate sex life is the same as our passion for nonsexual hobbies.
Think of a food that you tolerate.could you force yourself to regularly eat it for at least 15 minutes with gusto to make your spouse happy? Would counseling help you achieve that goal? Her husband can no more make himself feel passion for making love to her than you can make yourself enjoy eating a food you barely tolerate. He might be able to touch her in ways that make her happy, but he can't make himself feel lust that would make lovemaking mutually passionate. She wants him to enjoy lovemaking but at best he will go through the motions hoping she will get off soon so he can stop doing something that he doesn't enjoy.
What she wishes is what most people here unrealistically hope for. It's what I hoped for. Even in the early days of marriage, my husband's lovemaking lacked passion. I was in my 20s looking with envy at couples who obviously loved each other's touch. It wasn't until decades later after I finally got out of that marriage that I experienced the love and passion I'd longed for. I learned that it's not something my partner or I make ourselves feel . It's just there. |
May 19, 2016 at 1:19pm bballgirl said:
...it became a question of logic for me: Do I want to be celibate for the rest of my life?
Do I want to live under the same roof with someone I'm not in love with? There it is the black and white. (Of course for me there were so many other dysfunctional issues but if the sex and the love were there I would have worked through them). So then when it's black and white and you take the emotion out it's easier to rip off the band aid.
My ex told me that the night I told him I wanted a divorce that I was like a robot with no emotion like it was rehearsed and robotic. It was and that's not me but it's the ME that I had to be in order to have a chance at the life I wanted FOR ME!
Further down....Post by baza on May 19, 2016 at 8:16pm
Don't fret too much about "why" you are dragging your feet about having "The Talk", as the answer is invariably "because I'm not ready".
And, you won't be ready until such time as you have done the boring old things of -
- seeing a lawyer in your jurisdiction and establishing how a divorce would shake out for you
- putting together an exit strategy and knocking it in to do-able shape
- shoring up your support network
- researching everything you can about managing kids (if any) through such a process.
In other words, you have to have constructed a viable alternative to staying before you start seriously thinking about going.
THEN, comes "The Talk", undertaken from a position of certainty, with a viable alternative in your pocket.
Page 2, same threadPost by bballgirl on May 19, 2016 at 9:18pm
...
Some words that I used to make it clear to him that I wanted a divorce were:
"Being married makes me feel like I'm in prison"
...
"I'm not in love with you anymore"
"I can be your friend and co parent, I just can't be your wife"
"We are not compatible"
We discussed mainly the sexless loveless marriage during the counseling session. That was the biggest issue for me.
My purpose for going to that session, and I had a different agenda than my ex, was to make it perfectly clear that a divorce was eminent. That if he wanted to proceed with a counselor individually it would be helpful to him. That he is in a different stage of the greiving process than me and he should seek legal advice as well. He left angry. Silent treatment for two days then back to denial until he was served.
Post by DryCreek on May 19, 2016 at 10:34pm
A common turn of events over the years on EP...
Someone would logically map out their points and rehearse their speech repeatedly to make sure they could get through it to the end.
Then one day opportunity presents, the discussion turns, and the decision is announced... And the speech never gets used. But they were prepared and confident.
...
Same goes for laying blame at their feet hoping they will emerge a better person. They won't be listening, and they won't be receptive; you're running over them with a dump truck, and they'll be reeling not feeling introspective.
Post by elle on May 22, 2016 at 1:28am
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you,
then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through
and dispels the mists-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
-- White Eagle
Post by Dan on May 23, 2016 at 10:10pm
I realized that I've been in agony approaching The Talk because I'm thinking I have to convince her -- intellectually -- that "a divorce is a good idea, given where we are". The main reason it won't work is she doesn't want a divorce. It wasn't in her plans; things aren't bad enough for that in her mind.
...
I think I've been approaching it that way to sidestep the HUMONGOUS amount of selfishness I feel for wanting a life without her. If I convince her it is a good idea, then it isn't [so] selfish.
My therapist pointed out that it is not selfish to want to be happy, and it's damn tough being a martyr to some abstract ideal of "sticking with a marriage for the sake of it".
Post by petrushka on May 29, 2016 at 8:40am
... it's not about 'promises made in the past' and it's not about the right to happiness - not really i.m.o.
As I see it it's about how the relationship is playing out now. And it's about the questions: What are my needs and wants. What needs and wants are not being met. What needs and wants can I do without, and which ones am I not going to abandon.
And you have to draw the line in the sand according to the answers to that last question.
...
Consensus, at that point, is merely the icing on the cake, but I'm perfectly happy to eat my cake without icing. So if the other party is not willing to listen and come to an amicable solution in the end, then fuck it, and don't obsess about making it so, when you can't. {this is assuming that all prior attempts at repair have failed, but that failure may not necessarily be a consequence of your s.o. not being willing, they may just not be able to meet your needs, that is a possibility too}
iliasm.org/post/56965
Post by McRoomMate on Mar 29, 2017 at 5:25pm
So I practiced and thought about all I would say ....
I told her "We were not working out as a couple" ..."I am not in Love with you any more".
Done deal. I can move out whenever I want. I said I would start seeing other people she said "None of my Business anymore".
Very "matter of fact" and absolutely zero drama, other than she said she would limit me seeing the children once every two weeks - I did not engage. She also said she would never foregive me for walking out and that I would self-destruct on my own without her. I did not engage. She said it very calmly without drama - just as a matter of fact.
We even laughed a little in the conversation - She said she cannot wait to see what ridiculous choices I will have for future girlfriends and probably find them comical.
...Her main concern was that it was clear it was MY decision, not hers, and that I was the one that would not work at the marriage.
... I guess I get the ILIASM record for having the most banal drama-free TALK about ending a marriage ever.
I feel so relieved and yes . . . happy. ...
UPDATE - THE NEXT DAY
...tonight she had one of her work friends (a lady co-worker) come over and they drank wine and talked in the kitchen. She seemed quite happy and relaxed.
Post by shamwow on Mar 29, 2017 at 9:58pm
OK, I'm gonna be the one to ask... Have you seen an attorney and did he advise you that it was OK to just move out?
If not, keep in mind that doing so can affect your custody arrangements as well as final dispensation of assets (i.e. House). She might just be going along to get you to leave. Then you have slit your own throat on custody and financials.
...make sure she isn't rope-a-doping you, brother.
Post by Copernicus on Mar 30, 2017 at 12:53pm
...Constructive abandon varies from state to state (I believe). Certainly, in my state, refusal/withdrawal of sex for more than 12mo is considered Constructive Abandonment, so check that out.
on Mar 31, 2017 at 10:28am
...Let your STBX play her manipulative games -... you can control not responding to them in the way she wants; you can choose not to give her your power. Once she realizes she's having no effect, that's when the claws will come out and she'll start getting nasty. Just focus on you, friend. Nothing else. Just you!
Post by apocrypha on Mar 31, 2017 at 11:11am
...your question about whether she will be jealous or upset would reasonably be interpreted as you being invested in her answer, or even as you hoping she will be hurt. Don't chum the water.
You've removed the expectation of presenting as a married couple from the gameboard, so she's now expressing contempt through threatening your access to children and by literally mocking your interest in what she thinks.
You are going to date other people. So is she.
In fact, you both likely feel a screaming urgency to do so immediately, if not to somehow make this all worth it.
You are both likely to get on the divorce diet, hit the gym, change your hair and get with whatever programs you wish you'd done years ago, and likely your feelings will both be hurt by it.
Whomever you both date next will seem to the other like they are getting the better versions of you.
...
All that matters now is how you will proceed and the level of care and respect with which you treat each other, and just as in marriage, you can only control your half of that. She will continue to be who she is.
It's a tough period to be in the house together, ...She seems highly motivated to humiliate you.
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Post by cagedtiger on Jul 17, 2016 at 1:10am
...my wife cornered me this afternoon, and even though she was feeling sick, we had the talk.
So I found out the reason she hasn't been interested in being intimate:
"I've always been afraid of losing you, so if I kept you at arms length, it would make it easier to deal with."
So there's that. But I'm going to get back to drinking. More to come later.
Post by DryCreek on Jul 17, 2016 at 2:58am
... That's like saying "This is my favorite candy, but I'm not going to eat it because then it'd be gone..."
Post by unmatched on Jul 17, 2016 at 3:19am
That is my wife's theory too! Don't ever get too involved or too hopeful about anything because then it won't hurt so much to lose it. The fact that it makes the loss so much more likely, and stops you enjoying the life you do have, is apparently irrelevant.
Post by baza on Jul 17, 2016 at 4:39am
...One could interpret this as a classic "relationship death wish".
I doubt that there is any coming back from that position.
..
I rarely say this, but just maybe, this ain't done.
Disclaimer - I am pretty drunk at this point.
Post by litnerd on Jul 17, 2016 at 8:49am
I have actually had a similar "reasoning" in past relationships...
In my case, it becomes more of a defense mechanism. "If I don't let them close, they can't hurt me."...
I have to say that it's totally fucked up, though. Especially when you have someone who's making/made huge efforts in the relationship and you're withholding because you're too insecure to trust him.
Post by warmways on Jul 17, 2016 at 11:34am
My H told me he is afraid of losing me and his fear is If he gets close I'll leave. He said he's afraid if we have sex, I'll leave him. I told him if we didn't have sex I'd be more likely to leave and if we didn't have more intimacy. He said he knows it doesn't make sense, but is unable to change.
Thanks for posting this caged tiger.
Post by cagedtiger on Jul 17, 2016 at 2:55pm
I told her flat out that I haven't seen the woman I fell in love with in a long, long time. She agreed that she's not particularly fond of herself right now either.
We're both actively seeing if our therapists (she talked about starting to see hers again) have any suggestions for somebody we can see together this week.
Follow up talk definitely needed, as well as a longer term plan of action.
She also reminded me, "I told you, so many times, that your deserved better than me," which I hated her saying, and I thought was just her being down on herself.
Pinkberry
Jul 17, 2016 at 3:43pm
Oh my. This is a huge red flag. ... I was reading a book on successful dating and one of the key points is that if someone says you deserve better, I'm not good enough for you, or the like, BELIEVE THEM AND RUN AWAY!...
That is the way fucked up people tell you they are fucked up and have chased away everyone else. Don't be a "fixer" because fixers usually aren't successful. They just take on the responsibility and get crushed in the process of attempting to fix something that is not theirs to fix, nor within their capabilities to fix. Don't fool yourself into thinking you can or should correct someone else's existing self-esteem issue.
Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2016 at 9:01pm
...if you only get sex when you threaten to leave, your spouse does not love you.
Post by iceman on Jul 18, 2016 at 9:12am
cagedtiger said:
She also reminded me, "I told you, so many times, that your deserved better than me," which I hated her saying, and I thought was just her being down on herself.
That's messed up. How are you supposed to react to that? It's your fault that you haven't bolted to someone she feels can treat you as you deserve? My wife has told me on multiple occasions 'I know I'm a disappointment to you and I take you for granted'. I think she's trying to get me to tell her that I understand and it's okay. Well, it's not okay and as hard as I try, I can't understand.
Post by cagedtiger on Jul 19, 2016 at 10:43am
Just got an "I miss you. A lot." Email from my wife.
I really don't miss her all that much right now. I really, really miss the dogs. And her adorable attention whore of a cat....
But I feel bad about not missing her as much, and really sorry that she's feeling so lonely.
And I've
already been missing her, the her that I knew, for many, many months.
Is that bad?
iliasm.org/thread/3999/talk
Post by choosinghappy on Dec 21, 2017 at 12:00am
How often do you talk with your refuser spouse about your SM? About how unhappy you are, about what you wish your marriage was like, or suggestions for things to try to improve the situation?
I’ve been thinking lately that perhaps I’m letting my H “off the hook” by almost never bringing it up. He’s in therapy trying to deal with his issues and hopefully discovering what he may or may not be capable of sexually and intimately in this marriage, and I am just allowing him this time (an undisclosed amount of time that is,) to do this. All while I just play the good little wifey and almost never bring it up so it doesn’t derail whatever progress I am just hoping he’s making.
The thing is, I don’t want to upset the peace we have in our household. NO, I’m not happy with our SM -we have talked about it quite a few times - but maybe me not bringing it up regularly is making him think it’s not as big of a deal to me as it is or that it’s not hard for me every single second of the day.
So how often do you bring it up? And in what form? Sit down discussions? Snide comments? Screaming fights? I’m not sure any of these would do any good for my situation at the moment beyond just making us both miserable.
Post by M2G on Dec 21, 2017 at 12:18am
Not worth it. W will not discuss, its a "boundary" you see. Last and final time I pushed the issue she put the blame on me. Wish she would just say "I don't want to fuck you anymore" but oh no, she won't go there either.
That's fine, because 6 years of faithful celibacy is, for me, quite long enough.
Post by ironhamster on Dec 21, 2017 at 1:00am
The frequency of discussions has been all over the place over the years. The topics never focused on our sexless marriage, but about why she was not in the mood or why I was always in the mood. Most often, they would happen in the bed. They were calm until about three years ago when I stopped taking her claims at face value, and stopped accepting blame. We never had any screaming fights until this year.
Post by baza on Dec 21, 2017 at 1:11am
Bear in mind I am out of my deal, so I am commenting from my position as it once was - not as it presently is.
Back in the day of my ILIASM deal, just like you Sister choosinghappy , I too didn't "want to upset the peace we had in our household".
Short term that was easily handled by the simple expedient of going along with everything she wanted and eschewing everything she didn't want.
That worked great for keeping the peace, and it worked great for my missus - for a while.
It didn't work for me at all - after a while.
"Peace at all costs" is not peace at all. It is just delaying the day of reckoning.
Did we discuss it ?
Yeah. But only a few times.
Those few times turned in to arguments and finger pointing etc and achieved nothing. Nor did counselling etc.
I usually don't need to be told something more than once or twice, so from then on, the matter was rarely discussed.
Why bother ? Her actions said everything that needed to be said.
Words were superfluous.
I just regarded her as pretty irrelevant as a spouse and didn't engage at that "married couple" level any further. Funnily enough, that put us on the same page as far as the marriage went, although she still wanted to put on an act for the wider community.
She was a good Financial Partner though, and that was the basis of how we stumbled onward toward 30 years.
Some people might regard a marriage that survived for 30 years a big success !
I personally am not necessarily of that opinion.
Anyway, toward the end, she started to engage in behaviors that threatened the Financial Partnership, the only decent thing remaining.
That torpedoed the deal.
We split.
Post by northstarmom on Dec 21, 2017 at 7:55am
I used to bring up our complete sexlessness every few years. Nothing changed. He’d act like he needed time to think about the problem. I gave him years to respond. He didn’t. ...
I started telling close women friends about the SM. That was productive because they told me my marriage was abnormal, my desires were normal, I am attractive, my husband was being unkind and acting in an abnormal way.
Due to such conversations, I realized I deserved better. I realized I couldn’t make him want me. I also realized I no longer wanted him. There was no point in wanting someone who didn’t desire me.
I asked for a divorce. He quickly agreed. Ended up he had a woman on the side and at age 61 thought he’d fathered her toddler.
I’m now 66 and 4 years into a relationship with the love of my life. We enjoy sex. We talk about it, too. We talk about what we enjoy and we also talk during sex. Those are fun and productive conversations very unlike the useless sex talks I had with my ex. If you have to explain, persuade or beg someone to have sex with you, you are not sexually compatible. They are incapable of loving you the way you desire.
Post by Frustrated1978 on Dec 21, 2017 at 6:34pm
After a while there's no point in bringing it up. The Refusers actions are loud and clear. However last night was the exception. My wife stated whilst in bed her new years resolution was to save more money. (Mind you we are financially comfortable) She had concluded that my Foxtel Subscription had to go. (For those that know my back story from the original Sister Forum to this would know that the abolition of my Foxtel Subscription has been a long term goal of hers for many years.)
My response was Foxtel will never be going. Why would I part with something that gives me pleasure and joy? It's not like i get pleasure or joy from sex.
The look she shot me was like I'd asked her to donate her right kidney.
Post by orangepeel on Dec 21, 2017 at 6:49pm
I’ve raised it twice - verbally - and she reacted like Sugar Ray Leonard on the ropes when Tommy the Hitman Hearns seemed to have him at his mercy. He just couldn’t land the blow, just like I couldn’t get a straight answer out of a woman avoiding sex for five years. You’d have thought the question “Do you think it’s normal we haven’t had sex for five years?” merits an answer, but you’d be wrong...
Post by takestwototango on Dec 21, 2017 at 10:08pm
I've brought it up many times, but it almost always becomes an argument & my fault that he does not want to have sex with me. He insists he's not cheating & that he still finds me very attractive, he just doesn't have any drive. Or, there's the fall-back that he's afraid he will have another heart attack & die, even though his heart dr said he is good to go in the sex dept. The excuses for not wanting or desiring sex are endless. Counseling starts in a few weeks, thank God. Even if it doesn't help the SM, I know it will help me!
Post by james on Dec 22, 2017 at 4:03am
My experience is: it doesn't actually matter. It's irrelevant whether or not, or how often, you bring it up. It doesn't make any difference. For the first few years, I would bring the subject up once or twice a year, in as calm a way as possible. She would generally give me quite a cold look and say that she would think about it or some other words equivalent to "this is going into the long grass". More recently, I bring it up much more often. This is usually in response to her recently oft-repeated suggestion that "there seems to be a barrier between us". She is right there. I am no longer offering any kind of intimacy at all, beyond a peck on the lips or cheek when I leave for work. No hugs, cuddles, hand-holding on offer from me, though if she offers, then I kind of accept ... So we are well on the way, if not arrived at, the point of being roomies. Others here have stated that the only thing that makes a difference is the variety of nuclear options (I am leaving, I am divorcing, I am outsourcing) which should be placed on the table and then acted upon without any delay in order to retain full credibility. Words on there own are fairly meaningless.
Post by worksforme2 on Dec 22, 2017 at 7:01am
The question in my mind is: "what is the purpose of bringing it up more than you currently do"? When I was married and brought it up probably 3 times a year the purpose was to make her realize just how much damage she was doing and that there would inevitably be consequences if her behavior didn't change. ... after 5 times do you really think upping the frequency will be the magic bullet that turns things around? ... Any # of stories here (including mine)speak to dropping the D bomb if there's no change....
Post by M2G on Dec 22, 2017 at 8:39am
Dec 22, 2017 at 7:01am worksforme2 said:
The question in my mind ism "what is the purpose of bringing it up more than you currently do"? When I was married and brought it up probably 3 times a year the purpose was to make her realize just how much damage she was doing and that there would inevitably be consequences if her behavior didn't change. The most dire consequence being the marriage would be damaged beyond repair.
You are thinking you might be giving your H a pass. Maybe so. But how many times should one have to tell one's spouse how damaging and hurtful their behavior is before expecting some sort of change? 3 times, 5, 8. And after 5 times do you really think upping the frequency will be the magic bullet that turns things around? Experience here tells us that is extremely unlikely. Any # of stories here (including mine)speak to dropping the D bomb if there's no change. Turns out separation and divorce came a knocking irrespective of the # or frequency of talks.
If your goal is to measure the progress he makes in addressing his own demons that's different as it represents your desire to help him toward a state of wellness emotionally. Just don't chase the frequency of bringing it up as another potential "why" he isn't responding to your efforts to turn things around.
I got home with a big smile on last night and immediately got it wiped off with a verbal baseball bat.
Hard as I work, as careful as I strive to be, I can't seem to go any longer than 10 days to 2 weeks without doing something she finds off-putting and worthy of a fight.
chastisement. Not fighting back, seems just to make her more intensively roused than if I were to resort to yelling - and I don't have the stomach for that anymore. Not worth it. I just stand there and listen, just like I used to to when I was a little kid taking shit from my abusive step-dad.
My W, seems to think everything I do is some wild plot to gaslight her, abuse her, manipulate her, control her or invalidate her - whatever the fuck it is. In fact, I am doing everything possible to do just the opposite. Maybe I really am just a horrible person, maybe subconsciously I'm really a huge bag of hate behind a mask, my unconscious mind hatching hateful plots in the background - waiting to pounce and ruin her life. Sex, is so far out of the picture at this point that I no longer think about it. It's just as hopeless as trying to cut down the largest tree in the forest with a stick of chewing gum.
Moving forward with my lawyer visit plans next week. W decided to stop working back in '95 so probably I will get crucified in a divorce but, at this point, it seems better that than the eggshell walk I take on a daily basis.
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