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Post by jerri on Nov 30, 2020 0:38:12 GMT -5
saarinista gladifoundthisforum , I'm looking at my own deal here - and I would not declare my marriage 'dead'. Clearly my wife has checked out sexually. But we snuggle every evening in bed, occasionally she comes and leans into me when I'm standing at the window or working in the kitchen, she comes to me when she needs help with one of her projects, she gives me affection (and that was a very hard lesson to learn for her because it was just not something she had learned before our relationship) and she tries to make me happy (even though empathy is not her strong suit and she has trouble figuring out what might do the job). But, we agree on politics, on religion, on what is civilized behaviour, on what is immoral, on education (not that we have children), we don't fight, we talk things out when needful, even if we don't always agree and we have very different tastes in music and interior design. The main thing is, that she is WILLING to engage, she is willing to learn and push her comfort zone. If that wasn't the case, I'd be long gone. I am only willing to put up with _so_ much suffering and pain and abuse before I pull the ripcord and parachute out. Compared to many marriages I see, there's quite a bit going on here. I'd be a hell of a lot worse off without her (even though she keeps on seeding the damn kitchen with breadcrumbs). It is possible to make it work without sex. But yeah ... sometimes I think of what I missed out on, these last 17 years and I get a little sad. But this is one hell of a lot better, emotionally, than my first wife who loved having sex with me but was not connecting socially, emotionally, intellectually. That's some light at the end of the tunnel! My heart smiled. Things like these are exactly why if anyone was going to leave it was going to be him. During a span of about a decade I went to therapists to have my marriage saved or tossed. I fell into the anxiety trap and told him I would be stepping out of the marrige for sex. I just couldn't see myself without sex and intimacy. But we are best friends in most ways. I have salvaged date night and some intimacy. Sometimes I sleep with him and he will press on my foot and I press back, recently, have done the 10 second kiss, it's far from the kiss on the cheek I was used to. I think maybe a good direction to go can be in mirrororchid 's direction. If I had it to do over again, I would not let go of my H, but I would have followed Mirror Orchid's path. From the looks of it, I will still be stepping out of the marrige for sex. Sexless married man has been on holiday for a month when it is said and done. H said he was more of a loner when it came to sex. Which is fine,but I am not!
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Post by gladifoundthisforum on Nov 30, 2020 5:17:34 GMT -5
saarinista gladifoundthisforum , I'm looking at my own deal here - and I would not declare my marriage 'dead'. Clearly my wife has checked out sexually. But we snuggle every evening in bed, occasionally she comes and leans into me when I'm standing at the window or working in the kitchen, she comes to me when she needs help with one of her projects, she gives me affection (and that was a very hard lesson to learn for her because it was just not something she had learned before our relationship) and she tries to make me happy (even though empathy is not her strong suit and she has trouble figuring out what might do the job). But, we agree on politics, on religion, on what is civilized behaviour, on what is immoral, on education (not that we have children), we don't fight, we talk things out when needful, even if we don't always agree and we have very different tastes in music and interior design. The main thing is, that she is WILLING to engage, she is willing to learn and push her comfort zone. If that wasn't the case, I'd be long gone. I am only willing to put up with _so_ much suffering and pain and abuse before I pull the ripcord and parachute out. Compared to many marriages I see, there's quite a bit going on here. I'd be a hell of a lot worse off without her (even though she keeps on seeding the damn kitchen with breadcrumbs). It is possible to make it work without sex. But yeah ... sometimes I think of what I missed out on, these last 17 years and I get a little sad. But this is one hell of a lot better, emotionally, than my first wife who loved having sex with me but was not connecting socially, emotionally, intellectually. I nearly cried reading this : but I'm not sure why........ thank you for posting this petrushka.
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Post by gladifoundthisforum on Nov 30, 2020 10:12:37 GMT -5
Hello folks, Another 'mind-dump' coming up.... (yeah, I *am* treating you lot as therapists aren't I !) Last night my H and I talked pretty calmly and honestly about the SM problem (rather than the gf problem). It was a difficult conversation and I really had to push myself to keep drilling at him even though I knew he was finding it uncomfortable ( saarinista has given the advice to concentrate on myself, stop worrying about upsetting him and stop trying to walk on eggshells all the time. So I've just started, politely but determinedly, not worrying about 'hearing the eggshells break' .... ) The most difficult aspect (from *my* perspective) seems to be his 'not realising' that I was trying to engage him for sex, and his 'not knowing' I have any sex drive at all. [The 'no sex drive at all' stuff did indeed used to be true- about 10 years ago (he's read more-or-less exactly the same thing as my OP on here, and it was all in there)- so I can see where he's got that from. But I can't see why he *still* thinks that. He knows I climbed the mountain of re-finding both him and me sexually attractive again and we had our wonderful 4 month long '2nd honeymoon'.] I pushed him hard on the question of whether he would be (or would have been in the past few years) horrified/shocked to find *me* having sex outside the marriage..... not just *him* doing it! The answer, suprisingly to me, was basically, 'yes'. Not because of any 'male ego' type reasons (really....?), but because I hadn't shown him that I *had* any sex drive, so wouldn't have needed to do such a thing.? ? ? (does he mean that if I had 'shown him' he would have satisfied my needs himself??) But I have shown him - re: 2nd honeymoon etc. Likewise him 'not realising' I was trying to engage him (for all those months at the end of our 2nd honeymoon) - he *has* to have realised, as he was telling me he was too tired, stressed, busy etc....... says he can't remember any of this stuff. The occasion about a year ago in the lovely hotel ; a couple of days ago during the 'upset' he said he was too scared -in that instance-to have sex in case he couldn't 'perform' ....... he now maintains he didn't know I was trying. (there have been a couple of occasions since, when we've had a fun and affectionate evening drinking wine and dancing around the living room etc, that I have tried again, but fair enough, I wasn't being *blindingly* obvious about it. I think I feel kinda embarrassed (?) exposed (?) or just plain silly(!) being 'obviously sexy' . I'm aware I've got my own problems as well in this matter ; I've got to work on myself too.....) Starting to think that his autistic tendancies and inability to 'read' other people are now turning into just an excuse to make everything always 'somebody else's fault'. So we also talked about how not to misunderstand each other in the future and have sex at 'mutually convenient times' . He's worried about going without his daily 'porn release' in case I *don't* make a blindingly obvious offer (i.e. shove my tits in his face, wear something obvious etc...) before he's blown his top,crashed the car maybe, through a week of un-released stress....... So I asked why he couldn't just *ask me* or *engage with me* if he needed sexual release (as I can't read his mind and know when!) and if I'm in the mood too, terrific! we'll go for it and if I'm not ( which lets face it, will happen sometimes) he will know what to go off and do........ Leaving it to me to just keep trying, when he's more than likely already running-on-empty, just leaves me to more rejection and listening to more excuses ..not sure I can cope with that I'm basically asking him if it's ever occurred to him to stop and save something for his wife before blowing it all on the internet?? Answer to this appears to be, no. I 'spose that's what addiction is As far as the gf question goes ; she got back to my email with a reply stating that she'd received an obviously very important email, and were H and I *both* sure we wanted her to read the whole thing? (she sounds like a logical rather than emotional type of person...) I told her I sent it because I was cross at the time, but now, having thought about things (and after reading support and advice on this site- which I am *not* going to mention to the other protagonists in this mess!) I did want her to know all this stuff...... dunno what my H told her, dunno if she's read it yet......... -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I have recently dug out of my memory a reason why he would think he can have full-on affairs, not just shagging, and in *this* country. So I have to take some responsibility here He did have an affair with an old friend of his about 10 or 11 years ago. (A slightly un-stable female living in Wales; he spent lots of weekends up there with her. I believe they argued and broke up - the affair certainly stopped fairly sharpish after a time) I was in an extremely bad patch at that time. Fat, depressed, hideous and believed I got everything I deserved for being such a bad, un-shaggable wife. So I never called him out on it.He didn't try too hard to hide it either, so he musta thought I was absolutely fine about everything. I imagine this will be why my fury, this time 'round, was such a shock to him. But I'm no longer the same 'undeserving' person I was last time. (no, I know that I wasn't 'undeserving' last time either! I'm learning a bit of self-esteem now ) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thank you for 'listening' xx
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Post by saarinista on Nov 30, 2020 12:02:49 GMT -5
gladifoundthisforum I'm glad you talked to him. I think he's not being totally honest with you. I smell BS. I think some therapy might well do you good. Sharing with a person in real time and getting a response is valuable.
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Post by northstarmom on Nov 30, 2020 12:27:58 GMT -5
He's gaslighting you. I hope that you will see a lawyer to find out your options in case you or he decide to divorce. I think your chances are nil of having a fulfilling sex life with him. He has checked out sexually. It's up to you to decide whether to stay and be celibate, stay and outsource, or leave and take your chances at finding fulfilling sex. Individual therapy could help you decide what to do. You probably even can find a therapist who'll do therapy via zoom during the pandemic.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 30, 2020 13:49:53 GMT -5
He is gaslighting you, bummer, that just isn't fair dealing in any way. I would also add how often people here mention appearance/weight/aging as something they are worried about or trying to "fix". It's an easy option to hang onto, "if I just take up CrossFit, whoo hoo, it's nookie time". Except it isn't true most of the time. I've been young and fit in a SM. I've been young and overweight in a SM. I've been middle-aged and overweight in a SM, and now old and fitt-ish....SM.
Be fit for you. Do the things you want to do, for you. Stop hanging your hat on his f(*&cked up motives to drive your life.
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Post by baza on Nov 30, 2020 16:44:02 GMT -5
My suggestion is that you run the clock on this situation Sister gladifoundthisforum . That is to say you pick a date, a deadline, on how long you are going to persist with accommodating his idiosyncrasies. And, while that clock is running, get your legal advice etc so that when the clock runs out you are at least prepared for your next move to some extent. The deadline isn't so much for him (as he has choices of his own to make) but is rather for you - to keep yourself accountable. Time is not your friend in these situations, and usually, it ends up being you who has to take a pro-active position to drive the matter to resolution.
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Post by jerri on Nov 30, 2020 23:30:06 GMT -5
I would say his reaction falls on the excuses list.
What about scheduling date night with intimacy?
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Post by gladifoundthisforum on Dec 1, 2020 1:15:46 GMT -5
My suggestion is that you run the clock on this situation Sister gladifoundthisforum . That is to say you pick a date, a deadline, on how long you are going to persist with accommodating his idiosyncrasies. And, while that clock is running, get your legal advice etc so that when the clock runs out you are at least prepared for your next move to some extent. The deadline isn't so much for him (as he has choices of his own to make) but is rather for you - to keep yourself accountable. Time is not your friend in these situations, and usually, it ends up being you who has to take a pro-active position to drive the matter to resolution. Hello baza, thank you for your advice; you seem to be pretty good at the 'real world' practical ideas that I need to be thinking about ! As far as a 'clock running' goes, there is actually a big practical, time-line coming up in our lives. (we're working on a very large project which *should* be finished at the start of April '21...) Once this job is finished, there should be enough money arriving to make sure I'm not in serious financial crap if I *do* end up on my own. (4 months from now is quite a long time, but it would be a bit silly to bail out *now* before being paid, and chances are he'd be unable to organise himself to finish it without my input) I shall try to get some legal advice as soon as poss, just in case the worst does have to happen
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Post by lwoetin on Dec 1, 2020 1:51:03 GMT -5
husband and wife are supposed to share with one another. can he share his porn time with you? Perhaps not the brutal material though. Is that type just fantasy for him or is he rough with you?
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Post by gladifoundthisforum on Dec 1, 2020 2:18:36 GMT -5
I would say his reaction falls on the excuses list. What about scheduling date night with intimacy? Hello jerri, Well, oddly enough, scheduling 'date night with intimacy' was one of the first solutions HE came up with last night I don't geddit....... Yesterday I sent him a copy of my last 'mind-dump' post (with any forum etc. identifiers removed) . After the last email mess, (and my angry reaction to *his* reaction to it) he reacted differently.. (blimey, that's enough 'reacting' in one bloomin' sentence ) He appears to think that as long as we can successfully have a sex life again, everything's going to be fine and dandy and we can fix it all......... I'm not sure this is the case. I'm discovering more about my own un-happiness, than just the lack of sex. I'm not desperate for a shag ; I'm more desperate to be thought of as a 'fully-rounded' wife, somebody attractive enough to want to keep for her own sake. I feel as though I'm good for being kept for all the dull stuff in life (house-keeper type stuff, 'admin-of life' type stuff, office stuff, work stuff etc.) and even the quite nice bits like being company, having someone to talk to, someone to trust etc........ but the sex or good fun bits? No, that's saved for porn or, worse, somebody else. I think I'm just basically really jealous. (and I've always thought I didn't have a jealous bone in my body....... ) He did not attempt to engage with any of the points I made, answer any questions I put, or explain why he has done the things he has. But he hadn't had time to do all that as I *did* tell him NOT to jump in immediately with a response before thinking hard about all this stuff (which was probably why the 1st email session was such a disaster!) I really need him to explain some stuff ; I need to know the real reasons for the no-sex. The reasons given so far do not seem to make much sense; Back to the 'nice hotel' incident about a year ago. 1. about a week ago in our initial bust-up, he says he was scared to try and have sex on that occasion in case he couldn't 'perform' (scared of lack of rigidity, lack of size and an-orgasmia- generally being 'un-manly') 2. a couple of days ago said he didn't know I was trying because I was not obvious enough. (getting huggy, cuddly and affectionate in bed with your husband on your 25th wedding anniversary *isn't* being inviting? really?) 3. so if I had been obvious (tits in face etc) which he says I should try because it works for him, would that have miraculously cured the fear of non-performance? I really don't geddit. Once again, thanks for listening! xx
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 1, 2020 8:17:57 GMT -5
Having been through something similar, I get it. Your husband is satisfied enough with the status quo that he doesn’t plan to change. He assumes that as you have in the past, you will vent occasionally but will continue to stay in your sexless and —otherwise problematic for you— marriage.
Your husband is not going to change. If you want a more fulfilling life, you will have to let go of your marriage and move on. To do this, you will have to conclude that you’d be better off single than remaining married.
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 1, 2020 8:28:23 GMT -5
Well, oddly enough, scheduling 'date night with intimacy' was one of the first solutions HE came up with last night I don't geddit....... ... He appears to think that as long as we can successfully have a sex life again, everything's going to be fine and dandy and we can fix it all......... I'm not sure this is the case. I'm discovering more about my own un-happiness, than just the lack of sex. I'm not desperate for a shag ; I'm more desperate to be thought of as a 'fully-rounded' wife, somebody attractive enough to want to keep for her own sake. I feel as though I'm good for being kept for all the dull stuff in life (house-keeper type stuff, 'admin-of life' type stuff, office stuff, work stuff etc.) and even the quite nice bits like being company, having someone to talk to, someone to trust etc........ but the sex or good fun bits? No, that's saved for porn or, worse, somebody else. I think I'm just basically really jealous. (and I've always thought I didn't have a jealous bone in my body....... ) The daily game of solitaire he plays is all well and good, but if you're rejecting the Mrs., you're rather obligated to hold off and approach her later. At least, I'd think that would be proper courtesy. His willingness to provide for you now that he knows you're feeling your oats? It's put up or shut up. The drivel about his not knowing? Hey, whatever. He knows *now*. You said he may have autism? Yeah, supposedly, subtlety doesn't work. You need some big girl pants and refuse to be ashamed about it. He has basically made it clear he needs a "wanton harlot". If he wants a flirty vixen, he's gotta be a bit more focused on noticing. Pick one. He needs to provide you with a way to win. I've an unannounced policy with my wife that I plan to platonically date if we go for three weeks without. We'll see what happens if I ever fire that warning shot. (She's stayed within that limit for a year now, and I don't quite know how she's sensed it's a breaking point, yet there it is.) Perhaps you, too, want to establish a minimum, below which you'll be looking to supplement the inadequate supply of physical (and maybe emotional) intimacy. You don't fancy anyone, you say, but you haven't dated yet. Talking over a candlelit dinner may be something you do not know how you'll react to. Apocrypha has reported many divorcees are shocked to find they have quite carnal urges emerging after years of lethargic libidos. On your avoiding anger, that is unspeakably common. It produces a lack of boundaries and lack of self-respect and self-worth. Broaching subjects early and forcing yourself to accept your own priorities as legitimate can prevent blowups. It's a service to others to prioritize your own wants appropriately and avoid excess sacrifice. Let yourself win once in a while. It's only your due; what everyone else expects naturally, without intense introspection and constant second guessing. One young woman I know had it so bad that she'd black out for minutes at a a time when she'd tear her loved ones a new one. It was so traumatic, so antithetical to her self perception as the nicest person in the room, that she couldn't be "awake" for the ugliness that resulted when she didn't respect her own needs. That sounds like you; angry at your inner voice that fights for your life's dreams and goals. That inner voice is your friend. You just need to allow it to speak in an indoor voice so it doesn't feel the need to scream. Your "eggshells" talk, pushing through your discomfort of standing up for yourself was powerful to read. I'd think that talks like that may stop any future hitting. Everyone wins. saarinista suggested therapy. You may try dipping your toes on a web site offering free "active listeners". Such people listen to your story, then ask questions that ask for clarification or details. Explaining your situation carefully to others can flesh out your own feelings and understanding in ways that are accidentally therapeutic. 7 cups of tea is one example: www.7cups.com/BrowseListeners/
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Post by sadkat on Dec 1, 2020 9:52:35 GMT -5
I would say his reaction falls on the excuses list. What about scheduling date night with intimacy? Hello jerri, Well, oddly enough, scheduling 'date night with intimacy' was one of the first solutions HE came up with last night I don't geddit....... Yesterday I sent him a copy of my last 'mind-dump' post (with any forum etc. identifiers removed) . After the last email mess, (and my angry reaction to *his* reaction to it) he reacted differently.. (blimey, that's enough 'reacting' in one bloomin' sentence ) He appears to think that as long as we can successfully have a sex life again, everything's going to be fine and dandy and we can fix it all......... I'm not sure this is the case. I'm discovering more about my own un-happiness, than just the lack of sex. I'm not desperate for a shag ; I'm more desperate to be thought of as a 'fully-rounded' wife, somebody attractive enough to want to keep for her own sake. I feel as though I'm good for being kept for all the dull stuff in life (house-keeper type stuff, 'admin-of life' type stuff, office stuff, work stuff etc.) and even the quite nice bits like being company, having someone to talk to, someone to trust etc........ but the sex or good fun bits? No, that's saved for porn or, worse, somebody else. I think I'm just basically really jealous. (and I've always thought I didn't have a jealous bone in my body....... ) He did not attempt to engage with any of the points I made, answer any questions I put, or explain why he has done the things he has. But he hadn't had time to do all that as I *did* tell him NOT to jump in immediately with a response before thinking hard about all this stuff (which was probably why the 1st email session was such a disaster!) I really need him to explain some stuff ; I need to know the real reasons for the no-sex. The reasons given so far do not seem to make much sense; Back to the 'nice hotel' incident about a year ago. 1. about a week ago in our initial bust-up, he says he was scared to try and have sex on that occasion in case he couldn't 'perform' (scared of lack of rigidity, lack of size and an-orgasmia- generally being 'un-manly') 2. a couple of days ago said he didn't know I was trying because I was not obvious enough. (getting huggy, cuddly and affectionate in bed with your husband on your 25th wedding anniversary *isn't* being inviting? really?) 3. so if I had been obvious (tits in face etc) which he says I should try because it works for him, would that have miraculously cured the fear of non-performance? I really don't geddit. Once again, thanks for listening! xx This is really good thinking! You are spot on! The sad thing is that porn (sex) addicts just can’t “quit”. It takes intensive sex therapy and, even then, long term results are not promising. You are absolutely right about the reasons he wants to maintain the status quo. He’s not a bad guy- he’s just not interested in sex with you. That leaves you with a very hard decision. As for the 4 months before the job is finished- I don’t think you’ll be anywhere near ready to leave before then. It took me 14 months from the time I just knew I had to pull the trigger on my marriage to when I actually said goodbye.
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Post by csl on Dec 1, 2020 11:36:48 GMT -5
As to Solitaire, it might help the game along if you two can agree that you have the right to first refusal. If you aren’t up for a game, then Solitaire is playable. Otherwise, it’s a two-handed. (My only proviso would be that the game doesn’t turn on him down the road.)
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