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Post by ironhamster on Jan 2, 2022 20:04:30 GMT -5
Every interest and hobby I have in life are shop interests. It took me years to get a home with a detached shop for my hobbies. Honestly, I can spend most of my time in that shop never seeing my wife perfectly content immersed in my hobbies. If I were to divorce it would also mean an end to the hobbies I so enjoy. Just because I stay in a crap marriage does not mean I am limited to sitting across the room watching TV with her seven days a week. I simply choose to spend most of my time away from her doing the hobbies I enjoy. For me, going back to a studio apartment and leaving behind every interest aside from my kids that I have in life really would be hell. As we all know though, choices we make like this are very personal and certainly our own. Your future is what you make of it. I had a friend in similar circumstances to mine for years ago. I chose the cheat route which led to divorce, a new job in a new state, a new girlfriend, and healthy relationships with a healthy sex life. My friend chose to have a separate bedroom and his porn. He won't risk losing his retirement plans. Neither of us were wrong in our decisions. Staying is a valid option. So is ending the ordeal by leaving, or taking the volatile cheat route.
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heelots
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Post by heelots on Jan 3, 2022 0:25:46 GMT -5
Every interest and hobby I have in life are shop interests. It took me years to get a home with a detached shop for my hobbies. Honestly, I can spend most of my time in that shop never seeing my wife perfectly content immersed in my hobbies. If I were to divorce it would also mean an end to the hobbies I so enjoy. Just because I stay in a crap marriage does not mean I am limited to sitting across the room watching TV with her seven days a week. I simply choose to spend most of my time away from her doing the hobbies I enjoy. For me, going back to a studio apartment and leaving behind every interest aside from my kids that I have in life really would be hell. As we all know though, choices we make like this are very personal and certainly our own. Your future is what you make of it. I had a friend in similar circumstances to mine for years ago. I chose the cheat route which led to divorce, a new job in a new state, a new girlfriend, and healthy relationships with a healthy sex life. My friend chose to have a separate bedroom and his porn. He won't risk losing his retirement plans. Neither of us were wrong in our decisions. Staying is a valid option. So is ending the ordeal by leaving, or taking the volatile cheat route. At 59 with 4 kids 17-30 and grandkids I have made choices that have personal responsibilities that only a selfish heel could walk away from. The path you chose is great for a much younger man free of such responsibilities. I think some of it comes down to what values you were raised with and can you still look at the guy in the mirror when you shave each day and actually believe you are a decent human being. I am not wild about my situation, but at this point I cannot act like a 20 yr old kid and to act like everything is all about me would be unconscionable. Too many responsibilities to walk away from and I would not even consider that. Put blunt, for a guy in my position that would be no measure of a man. Ya, I am old school.
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Post by Handy on Jan 3, 2022 0:35:13 GMT -5
Heelots, I see several cases of not walking away from responsibility on this forum. OTH sometimes people just get fed up with a spouse and resent him or her so much, that they leave. I suppose it comes down to tolerance and how annoying the spouse becomes. Staying or leaving depends on so many things.
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optima
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Post by optima on Jan 3, 2022 2:36:20 GMT -5
From opposite land, newly divorced and much poorer for it, I’m delighted to report I’ve had more sexual encounters this holiday season than in the last several years of my 13 year marriage. I’ve also spent more focused and higher quality time with my young children than I did when married. Women I’ve dated make comparable money to me (in fields less volatile than petroleum engineering) and spend less than my ex wife. I’m fortunate that I did this in my late 30s, but boy am I glad that I did. I logged in tonight with the hope my holiday cheer could help motivate people still trapped in hell.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 3, 2022 6:19:41 GMT -5
... she just rolled over with her usual pillows placed strategically between us. What I don’t understand is when we have sex she seems to enjoy it. We get along much better. When we take a trip she’s willing but at home? ... In the middle of the night, I'd be removing the pillows. Sends the signal "I got the hint, the pillows are not a force field. It's insulting that you think you need protection from me." (unless she uses them for comfort/back support and hasn't felt any need to explain) Then again, I'm a lousy communicator. Words are so unsubtle, but so effective. Not my tool of choice. Trying to change that. Maybe you're a more sensible person than I am and ask her about the pillows. "Are these pillows a signal? You're safe, dear. Message received. You never needed them, but I'd be obliged if you acknowledged my self-restraint.") Re: vacation sex-Over at "Dads Starting Over", the host posits that the home environment fills wives with thoughts of childcare and housework. Spending time away from home removes everyday concerns and can redirect focus to other life aspects including the partner. That may be happening with you. If finances are a problem, perhaps a hotel not far from home and taking in a tourist destination as if on vacation might be enough to trigger the change of identity. A frustrated participant on his forum complained that enormous effort is required every time if he wants to see the return of the spicy vixen he married. DSO's reply: "Yup. Manning up is hard as work and that's what it takes. Bust your ass / spend a lot is what will be necessary. Make it happen." This poor S.O.B. got delightfully attacked when he told her he got a promotion at work. (and how often can that happen?) Makes the elaborate web of ruses, separate credit cards, a burner phone, and alibis of an affair sound like a cakewalk by comparison.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 3, 2022 6:36:29 GMT -5
I do worry that once the kids are gone the sneaky bitch will have some nest egg of money she has been squirreling away for years and decide to divorce. She would be stupid enough to do something like that and leave us both in poverty till we die. I would rather stay married to her and keep her as the room mate she has been for years and just sort of leave each other alone like we have been. At least that way I would not finish my days in a studio apt. Hell, I would even be open to finishing out the basement or adding HVAC, a crapper, and bedroom to the garage and moving out there! www.divorcenet.com/resources/divorce/before-after-divorce/attempting-hide-assets-before-divorce#:~:text=If%20you%20lie%20during%20discovery,fines)%20or%20a%20perjury%20charge. During discovery, you (and third parties) will be compelled to turn over relevant financial information to your spouse (or your spouse's attorney). You'll likely be deposed, which means you'll have to provide live testimony, under oath, about assets and property. If you lie during discovery or your deposition in order to hide assets, you've committed perjury (a punishable crime). If your lies are discovered by your spouse, your spouse's attorney, or a judge, you may face severe sanctions (monetary fines) or a perjury charge.
Likewise, if you simply fail to report assets or provide financial information to your spouse during a divorce, a court can order you to do so. If you defy the court when it, for example, orders you to share account balances and the location of money, you can be held in contempt of court, which can mean jail time. Those fines will come out of her half only. If you feel like you'll be in poverty already, add fines to her woes if she pulls that on you.
Why don't you finish out that basement? Separate entrance? Lock on the door to the stairs? Basically make a studio/one bedroom apartment for yourself. A canopy from the entrance to the garage allows for an annex. If she divorces you, lobby hard for the house and rent out your former bachelor pad. Offer a slightly generous settlement if you keep the house. With the rental income, maybe you'd be semi-okay. Also, you can make sure that any woman you might pair up with later has assets she can contribute to a lifestyle that doesn't include fishing coins out of the sofa regularly. You'd be leaving one woman with half a nest egg and teaming up with a woman in very similar financial condition, minus the bickering.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 3, 2022 6:41:50 GMT -5
What keeps you in your marriage? Love? Inertia When the marriage was its worst, about 3 years ago, I didn’t leave for the usual reasons of kids and money. Plus she was sick and I couldn’t leave her like that. But the last few years have been good except for some long sex droughts and every blue moon when we have sex frequently things are great. And not just for me. I think my wife loves me but isn’t attracted to me. That hurts but I know I’m not the best looking guy in the world. FWIW, twice a month is about half of a low-end normal sex life. When things blossom between the two of you, that's kind of ahead of the curve for lengthy marriages such as yours. "every blue moon" frequent sex doesn't sound much like a woman put off by your looks. I'd be curious if the resumption of "normal" frequency coincides with certain times of month. Even past menopause such fluctuations can continue. Might make sense to put off difficult discussions a few weeks if you know receptive times are afoot? Basically... see if there's a pattern, start a calendar.
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heelots
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Post by heelots on Jan 3, 2022 12:11:30 GMT -5
Heelots, I see several cases of not walking away from responsibility on this forum. OTH sometimes people just get fed up with a spouse and resent him or her so much, that they leave. I suppose it comes down to tolerance and how annoying the spouse becomes. Staying or leaving depends on so many things. Maybe I was in a bad mood but for whatever reason something in that reply prompted my less than pleasant response. I cannot put a finger on what provoked this in me but I will drop the issue now and not continue down that path. Thanks Hañdy, I keep you in my prayers as you fight the good fight. Best wishes for a better 2022 ahead for you friend!
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 4, 2022 12:16:51 GMT -5
Heelots, I see several cases of not walking away from responsibility on this forum. OTH sometimes people just get fed up with a spouse and resent him or her so much, that they leave. I suppose it comes down to tolerance and how annoying the spouse becomes. Staying or leaving depends on so many things. Maybe I was in a bad mood but for whatever reason something in that reply prompted my less than pleasant response. I cannot put a finger on what provoked this in me but I will drop the issue now and not continue down that path. Thanks Hañdy, I keep you in my prayers as you fight the good fight. Best wishes for a better 2022 ahead for you friend! It bears examination, heelots , because it's hardly a unique response or sentiment to attack others as being "less of a man" for "walking away from responsibilities". It usually goes with a pious accusation that those whose marriages ended (no matter who ended it) see marriage as something to walk away from "easily", and some kind of self-favouring comparison in which one reveals that their own moral character is superior to those who left their marriages. A better person than them. I've also seen (and made) the same rationale from people much younger and less invested (even to the point of a couple years and no kids) and with spouses who are empty nesters (several who are then surprised to find that their "happily celibate" spouses pinch off the relationship and shack up quickly with someone different. I think a lot of the misfiring and miserable stalemating in these kinds of situations is about the framing of the problem and about an either/or fallacy. Framing: The sexually abandoned spouse sees it as a sex problem, and then weighs sexual satisfaction vs kids, family, house, a life together etc, and the prospects of awkward Christmases and sunk costs. Framing it that way, who wouldn't try to work through it by jerking off or taking up gardening? What wouldn't you do to save the family? But another view (sometimes triggered by the sex averse spouse leaving or having an affair, after all that effort is expended fruitlessly), is that the "sex problem" is actually a product of a relationship dysfunction - a terminal one. As in, something happened with the averse spouse's view of you that was so significant that it changed the way/role you play in her life. In other words, it's not just a problem she had with what you did, but rather a realization she has arrived at about you or the marriage to you, that fundamentally changes the way she sees you as a person. You are no longer a person that she sees as a viable sexual partner. Doesn't mean she doesn't have a libido or needs that she is also subsuming for the same reasons of preserving the household as you (and that's a harsh toke, I know), but that you simply aren't, can't be, and will never be, a candidate for a serious ongoing sexual partner. Last man on Earth, kind of thing. Doesn't mean they can't like you, enjoy your qualities, or even love you. I still think of my ex-wife as a member of my extended family - I suppose it is a kind of love. It's still a relationship, but the expectations are different, you know? And when you frame it like that - the size of it - it becomes a lot bigger than a matter of someone jerking off to get by every night. It's more about sleeping and feeling safe or "at home" in your home and your relationship with a person who thinks of you like that. Do I really want to go to bed and sleep beside someone who thinks of me in that way? Or rather, why would I want to? What's the benefit of it vs sleeping alone. And once you pull that thread, why spend time, activities, or Christmas or anything else - when you know they'd all rather not attend, and prefer to do their own thing - where it's not something you'd want to worry about? Either/Or FallacyOnce you pull the plug on a marriage, things can careen pretty quickly - the rules and courtesies all change and people can impose surprising changes in their level of disclosure and their process for dealing with conflict. But it doesn't NECESSARILY mean that everything is severed and that you lose everything. There are people who navigate carefully through separation, guided by principles and mutual interest (and mutually assured destruction as well). If you (not you specifically, but someone leaving a marriage) are celibate - most likely your spouse is too - and both are trying to endure a dysfunctional marriage to preserve as much of the benefits of the relationship as possible - both sides being highly motivated and threatened by the loss of the marriage. Breaking up a marriage into component pieces doesn't mean you lose everything you gained, necessarily. There are trade-offs. I, for example, still share ownership of a marital home while the kids still live here with me. We are deferring the sale until a bit later and treating it as an investment and a cost saving opportunity. I have a separate bedroom for when I need to reside overnight in the home on my days, but mostly I'm out at my partner's house when my kids' mother is at the marital home for her days with them. My kids' mother has an apartment up the street (an arrangement I've seen more and more parents doing when houses are unaffordable). Bruce Willis and his extended family of ex-spouses and kids all go on vacation together. That's high level (and celeb wealth funded), but consider that they are wealthy enough that they choose this and don't have to do it that way. There are all kinds of things you have a potential to do in a separation that don't necessarily mean you lose the whole thing (and maybe that's not the case for you specifically - fair enough). But, a relationship "market correction" where both parties focus on preserving the practical benefits of a relationship while abandoning the lie and fantasy that you are both hoping to grow old and romantically together, can be a relief. It's not without cost though - and despite the many many accusations from people who reject the prospect immediately - I've never seen it considered whimsically.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 4, 2022 17:14:19 GMT -5
Your future is what you make of it. I had a friend in similar circumstances to mine for years ago. I chose the cheat route which led to divorce, a new job in a new state, a new girlfriend, and healthy relationships with a healthy sex life. My friend chose to have a separate bedroom and his porn. He won't risk losing his retirement plans. Neither of us were wrong in our decisions. Staying is a valid option. So is ending the ordeal by leaving, or taking the volatile cheat route. At 59 with 4 kids 17-30 and grandkids I have made choices that have personal responsibilities that only a selfish heel could walk away from. The path you chose is great for a much younger man free of such responsibilities. I think some of it comes down to what values you were raised with and can you still look at the guy in the mirror when you shave each day and actually believe you are a decent human being. I am not wild about my situation, but at this point I cannot act like a 20 yr old kid and to act like everything is all about me would be unconscionable. Too many responsibilities to walk away from and I would not even consider that. Put blunt, for a guy in my position that would be no measure of a man. Ya, I am old school. I was fifty when the divorce was finalized. It wasn't my choice to divorce. In some cases, a refuser has control issues. They won't live up to their promise of a healthy marriage, but they demand the refused live in an unhealthy relationship. I'm not shirking my responsibilities. Unfortunately, the law and ethics would have kept me from enforcing her responsibilities. The sad truth about incompatibility is that my minimum and her maximum were not compatible. Sex was not something she desired. For that, I was thrown out. We talk often about the three options of stay, cheat, leave, but in truth, there are five options.... 1) Stay, and be miserable. 2) Stay, and pressure your spouse to do things they don't want to do. 3) Stay, but get permission to get your needs met outside the relationship. 4) Stay, but get your needs met without permission. 5) Leave, because your needs aren't a factor in your spouse's interests so it's the honest thing to do.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jan 4, 2022 20:21:50 GMT -5
We talk often about the three options of stay, cheat, leave, but in truth, there are five options.... 1) Stay, and be miserable. 2) Stay, and pressure your spouse to do things they don't want to do. 3) Stay, but get permission to get your needs met outside the relationship. 4) Stay, but get your needs met without permission. 5) Leave, because your needs aren't a factor in your spouse's interests so it's the honest thing to do. Since we're fleshing things out... 4a) Stay, but get your needs met without permission, but the spouse is aware. 4b) Stay, but get your needs met without permission, but the spouse is not aware. (the most common form of open marriage)
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Post by baza on Jan 4, 2022 21:27:05 GMT -5
There's nothing wrong with being "old school" Brother heelots . If those views are proving to be life enhancing for you, then they are good values to have. But if those views are proving to be life depleting for you, then not so much.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 4, 2022 21:44:01 GMT -5
heelots, it's a valid choice to stay. I came here still loving my wife, and searching for the solution to our clinically sexless marriage. I think we all do. I understand the importance of family. Your wife may be like my ex, intent on a path of destruction and you may want to avoid that. It's a horrible catch-22, that one must remain in a relationship with someone that doesn't love them to keep from losing the family.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 7, 2022 10:23:03 GMT -5
heelots , it's a valid choice to stay. I came here still loving my wife, and searching for the solution to our clinically sexless marriage. I think we all do. I understand the importance of family. Your wife may be like my ex, intent on a path of destruction and you may want to avoid that. It's a horrible catch-22, that one must remain in a relationship with someone that doesn't love them to keep from losing the family. Its a bit of a word game though. What's a family, when people consider it? What if that "family doesn't love you. Avoids you? Wants less of you? Seeks to avoid you? Those are the hard cases. There's also softer ones - like extended family, or changing familial relations. Take my sister, for example: I have a baby and now she becomes an aunt. As an aunt she has a relationship with my child. She wasn't always this way - she moved into this role. Or, it was put on her. Also, my sister has her own life now - moved away. It's not like we both live at the same home anymore - so it's different now. Or, my girlfriend, who became my wife. Again, she was not always in this role, it's not innate. I love my sister, who is an aunt to my kids. I don't love her like I loved my wife. I don't love her like I love my kids, or my closest friends. There are different kinds of love and relationship formats and expectations. My ex-wife is still a part of my family.She just isn't my wife now.Her role has changed, like someone becoming an aunt, into something different than it used to be. I'm not sure what to call it - co-parent maybe? She is still in my life and will be for quite some time. I see her more than my sisters actually. She is still family - though I don't love her as a wife (nor maybe at all?) So, when I see "remain in a relationship to keep from losing the family" argument, I guess my framing around those terms is all different now. In the pre-divorce world here, there is no "married" relationship happening. It's a fantasy unrealized. In the post-divorce world, it's likely that there still is a family and that this family still includes the ex-wife in it in some way or another. Pre-divorce, post-divorce - it's still a family. The logistics, practicalities, expectations and disappointments all change around.
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Post by ironhamster on Jan 7, 2022 20:08:04 GMT -5
As you point out, though, Apocrypha, it is a different relationship, even if it is the same people. My relationship, married, was based on forced celibacy, non-ogomy, or, none-ogamy, as some may describe it. In exchange for her control over my sexual frustration, I got the promise of an intact nuclear family. Nothing more, really. I chose to modify that relationship. Now, she could have lovingly accepted that I had needs she could not fulfill. She didn't HAVE to deny our kids an intact nuclear family home, but it was more important for her to hurt others than to be loving. Before and after, we were still the same people, but in a different relationship. This begs the question, why would anyone choose a relationship based on control and sadism as a model for the children to follow? It seems, it might be better to find a healthy relationship elsewhere.
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