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Post by unknownn on Jun 8, 2023 16:07:21 GMT -5
Hello,
New here to the forum. My story short: got married about 4 years ago. My wife quicky started using sex as leverage to " get things done". Stubborn as I am, I refused to give in to this kind of leverage. To me, leveraging is for criminals or little children, not for grown adults who have sworn to spend the rest of their lives together. Not gonna go into detail about the subject she tried to leverage me about, it was a private matter that I had to handle with my family on my own terms.
I tried initiating sex a few times after, but after the 3 th rejection or so I decided to never initiate any kind of affection again, also after I handled the subject she leveraged me about initially.
Within about 2 years, our relationship started to improve again and my wife started bringing up the lack of intimacy in our relationship. However, due to resentment of her actions and me being stubborn as a donkey, I struggle giving in.Needless to say we haven't had sex since our marriage.
The problem is I kinda feel guilty about it, as I know my wife really wants kids, which will obviously not happen without sex. She is reaching an age where the biological clock started to tick.
We have done counseling before. Even though I had the impression the counselor was on my side regarding the whole " sex as leverage" situation, I feel my wife didn't interpret it the same way.
Is our marriage doomed because there is too much damage done?
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Post by baza on Jun 8, 2023 20:43:38 GMT -5
Your Q - "Is our marriage doomed because there is too much damage done?" Hard to say based on what you have divulged here Brother unknownn . The 'good'feature in your story is that its 'only' 4 years that this has been going on (most members here have been having issues much longer than this) The bad news is that this 4 years covers the entire marital history (it appears to have become the 'nornal') It is probably fair to say that if your deal continues on - on it's present trajectory - then it is a pretty bleak outlook in front of you. Suggestion - It would be prudent to see a lawyer in your jurisdiction to find out how a divorce would - theoretically - shake out for you. That doesn't mean you'd necessarily go down that road at this point, or 'ever' but all marriages end. Death or divorce see to that fact, and any married person, whether the marriage is 'made in heaven' or an 'ILIASM shithole" needs a plan should they suddenly find themselves not married. Good luck as you work your way through your situation Brorher unknownn .
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 9, 2023 5:16:01 GMT -5
There may not be too much damage, but you may be doomed, anyway.
I'm hearing that you're considering reconciling because she wants kids and you feel sorry for her. You've not said she wants sex, nor your love, maybe not even forgiveness. She was good enough with two years of celibacy. Throw in that you seem to be mildly miffed at the dry spell, letting her know that permanent celibacy after she's had your kids might not be a deal breaker.
Where are the "pros" for continuing? So far I hear "cons" only, and they are doozies.
Do you love her? If so, is the better choice to release her to a man who will enthusiastically embrace fatherhood with her? Perhaps with a warning of a second divorce if she pulls that control freak crap again. She'll find someone like you and be divorced again with a broken home for her kids, or she'll land a sheepish, "yes dear" type who will glumly be the provider for his kids, accept whatever scraps she'll offer, and obey her whims until he dies wondering how his life went off the rails.
Why does she even want kids with a guy she doesn't love enough to be physical with, for two straight years. (yikes!) Is she eying your paycheck? Husband, or child support, she wins either way?
If you go through with this, you might want a thorough post-nup. Maybe something including adultery having no bearing on any settlement, if permanent celibacy would not be an acceptable fate. (make sure state law would even allow for such a thing.)
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 9, 2023 8:09:08 GMT -5
mirrororchid beat me to this line of though. This marriage sounds like it is headed for the ditch. It reads like both of you are so hell bent on having your way. The normal compromises necessary to partner are missing. I don't see much communicating going on, just resistance. I would emphatically go on record advising against making babies with this woman. Controlling actions on the part of the refusing spouse are a common feature in a SM. It looks like the controlling attitudes go both ways here. Like mirrororchid I'm wondering if the better choice here is to release each other to persue more suitable mates before much more time passes.
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Post by aquacat on Jun 9, 2023 9:02:12 GMT -5
Sex should never be used as leverage. Sex is supposed to be a loving act between two people who love and care for each other. It should be something that both people want to share and express, not something one holds over the other until the one gets their way.
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Post by angeleyes65 on Jun 9, 2023 11:32:44 GMT -5
If you can't get past the resentment don't have kids with her.. if you can't fix it time to move on don't waste 15 yrs like I did. Also say you make up and things go back to normal, once kids are produced is sex going to end or be leveraged because she obviously can do without. Also sounds controlling what is her personality like, what is the marriage like outside of sex? Ask yourself is this someone you want to be with for at least 18 years. Is this a relationship that makes you happy that you want to stay in? You are only married 4 years, no kids you are in the perfect spot to walk away if you made a bad decision getting with her or if she bait and switched. I got married then had kids right away by year 3 with one kid I was not completely happy but we were far from sexless. We had another kid. It took my to 35 years of marriage to get out. He was a narcissist, I had a child with issues, debt( that he kept us in) then he made me feel like he might kill himself if I left. I finally did anyway. And my one regret was not getting out earlier, happiness is every thing.
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Post by shamwow on Jun 9, 2023 12:11:08 GMT -5
If you can't get past the resentment don't have kids with her.. if you can't fix it time to move on don't waste 15 yrs like I did. Also say you make up and things go back to normal, once kids are produced is sex going to end or be leveraged because she obviously can do without. Also sounds controlling what is her personality like, what is the marriage like outside of sex? Ask yourself is this someone you want to be with for at least 18 years. Is this a relationship that makes you happy that you want to stay in? You are only married 4 years, no kids you are in the perfect spot to walk away if you made a bad decision getting with her or if she bait and switched. I got married then had kids right away by year 3 with one kid I was not completely happy but we were far from sexless. We had another kid. It took my to 35 years of marriage to get out. He was a narcissist, I had a child with issues, debt( that he kept us in) then he made me feel like he might kill himself if I left. I finally did anyway. And my one regret was not getting out earlier, happiness is every thing. Short correction... You ask if this is someone you want to be with for at least 18 years. I believe this should instead read "is this someone you are prepared to piss away the most energetic and vibrant years of your life with?"
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Post by shamwow on Jun 9, 2023 12:18:24 GMT -5
Do you want to fuck her? I mean, think about her right now and do a gut check...do you want to throw her onto the bed and take her?
If not, do you "want to want" to fuck her?
If the answer to either of these questions is no (especially the second), then stick a fork in it, find a good attorney in your jurisdiction, and move on. Do NOT have kids with her. Especially out of feelings of guilt.
If the answer to the second question is yes, then you need to figure out what you'd need to answer the first question as a yes. Therapy may help, but in general, once you get to this point it is really tough to reignite the chemistry in the relationship.
Likely she is asking about sex now because of that ticking biological clock. After a baby arrives, expect to be relegated back to being her sherpa.
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Post by ironhamster on Jun 9, 2023 19:45:58 GMT -5
Cold, hard advise. I can expound, but, please do yourself and your future children a favor and do NOT let HER biological clock become your problem for the next eighteen years.
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Post by unknownn on Jun 13, 2023 3:07:04 GMT -5
Thx for the advise everyone, much appreciated. I will have to give it some thought.
I also have to add that in the last few years my wife started to take much less care of herself. Clothing wise, makeup, exercise,...
What do I take from that? I would assume she is definitely not trying to get another men's attention.
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Post by mirrororchid on Jun 13, 2023 6:21:09 GMT -5
Thx for the advise everyone, much appreciated. I will have to give it some thought. I also have to add that in the last few years my wife started to take much less care of herself. Clothing wise, makeup, exercise,... What do I take from that? I would assume she is definitely not trying to get another men's attention. First instinct is a primal scream of "DEPRESSION!" Clinical, that is. Systemic inflammation/neurotransmitter imbalance. Clinical depression was/is responsible for Mrs. MirrorOrchid's basement level libido. Maybe the meds she uses too. Our sexual relationship is now more cerebral. She understands the physical component isn't optional if we are to be monogamous rather than agamous. Has your wife been on medications the entire time? Like, throughout the two year enslavement campaign? Does she know if she's had sexual desire at any point? It may not be the meds, even if she's taking them. You don't seem to have an answer and I'm unsure how interested she is in finding one. Sperm donation shouldn't be too difficult to arrange to scratch her itch and won't ruin a guy's life. In her degraded condition, what's your take on how engaged she might be able to be as a mother? If you had to pick one, is her trajectory up or down? Is she thinking motherhood will give her a purpose in life? (Sometimes it does. Other times, it brings a child into the world with one functional parent and one that needs care from teh child later in life. Childbirth triggered my wife's depression.) If your wife's not on meds, perhaps get her on some. (though maybe you need to be less involved with her, than more. By investing care in her, it just makes it harder to leave if that's the smarter choice.) Vows are tough, though. I get it. This is not easy. aquacatThe operative word is "should". Dr. Psych Mom's repeated emphasis on responsive desire includes the observation that sex is commonly far more important to the husband. She will also speak of teh reflection that the other four love languages may be much more important to the wife and the husband is not doing them for his own sake. Broadening your observation, you might say, " Sex Love is supposed to be a loving act between two people who love and care for each other. It should be something that both people want to share and express, not something one holds over the other until the one gets their way."You could hold gifts, quality time, acts of service, or words of affirmation hostage too, and it'd still be shitty. You should be at the ready to supply the form of caring your spouse wants/needs even if it's not your flavor. It'd be pretty crappy to refuse dates, hugs, gifts, or encouragement because you demand sex first. Transactional love is common enough. Relationships that get intolerably one sided can start to lean that way and fray at the edges. The unique problem when you LIASM is that sex is the one love language you are expected to get from no one else. The others should not be denied either, but a scarcity has more readily available consolation.
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Post by aquacat on Jun 14, 2023 13:26:27 GMT -5
My love language is physical touch, like most guys I would assume. Her least of the love languages is also physical touch so it can get frustrating because it's so opposite and she doesn't think about touching me unless I ask, and this is for non-sexual touching.
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Post by blunder8 on Jun 15, 2023 10:53:03 GMT -5
My love language is physical touch, like most guys I would assume. Her least of the love languages is also physical touch so it can get frustrating because it's so opposite and she doesn't think about touching me unless I ask, and this is for non-sexual touching. Does she try to *substitute* another love language, to prove her love? I went through this with my wife beaming over a nice breakfast she had prepared for me after denying intimacy hours earlier. I knew the intent and had to redirect her that the menu substitution is a dodge.
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Post by shamwow on Jun 17, 2023 20:46:51 GMT -5
My love language is physical touch, like most guys I would assume. Her least of the love languages is also physical touch so it can get frustrating because it's so opposite and she doesn't think about touching me unless I ask, and this is for non-sexual touching. One thing about love languages... The key takeaway is that you should try to communicate in your PARTNER'S love language, not your own. You do this because you love them and want them to feel loved. When you have clearly communicated your love language is physical touch and they make no attempt to "speak" to you, it means they just don't give a shit... Let alone love you.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jun 22, 2023 11:43:40 GMT -5
It may help to parse out the separate issues here.
Your wife used sex as leverage with you. This means she felt it hurt you more than it hurt her, and that she intended to use it as transactional currency to manipulate you into doing something she wanted. It likely means that sex (with you) isn't something that she finds fulfilling on it's own. Doing it with you is an expenditure or chore for her - a favour from her, to you, even knowing that she likely would also receive pleasure, intimacy, and love in the same act. Pulling that thread, I would take that to mean - at an intuitive level - that this means she doesn't actually see you as a person she wants sexual intimacy with. It could be she's not attracted to you for physical reasons, it could be that she has come to hold you in contempt to a degree that she doesn't see you as a viable sexual partner (her sex is charity toward you, or work), or that maybe she never wanted to get married to you and she is so resentful and trapped in her present situation that having sex with you feels like engaging in relations with her captor. Or, maybe there is some aspect of the family situation you referenced or something she felt so strongly about that she came to see you in a different light and no longer wanted sex with you. Sometimes something can happen (cheating, a crime, a terrible secret, a behavior or discovery) that becomes so horrible once you know it, that it changes the way you see that person going forward, and it's permanent.
As for you not initiating sex and feeling badly, neither has she. So, again, it's up to you, apparently and she doesn't seem to want it enough with you to express love or to share intimacy for it's own sake or for HER sake. I don't know about you, but I when I have sex with someone else, part of the joy of it is the feeling I get from being enjoyed - knowing that my partner enjoys me - that I matter to her, and that it matters TO her that I'm the one bringing pleasure to her. By making sex transactional, she's presenting the ultimate rejection of you - the very essence, most stripped down (actually naked) version of you. It's incredibly toxic and is a HARD NO for me when I get a whiff of that in any relationship - time out and let's talk.
These two things lead me to think there is a FUNDAMENTAL disconnection between you that isn't resolved and that is so disconnected that it overrides her own normal sense of libido. Not to mention, if she's letting herself go physically to that extent - perhaps she sees no need to try to attract you (because she's not attracted to you).
If there is such a disconnection, the presence of children or not in your household won't prevent the divorce. It will simply be a divorce that happens with shared custody, and a longer marriage, and evidence suggests, after a longer period of celibacy. The breadwinner in this situation will pay more.
As for her biological clock, you both need to understand that SHE also has made decisions - many of them - that have brought you to this place.
With only four years in, two years celibate, I'm guessing a mutual aversion physically to each other, and likely some kind of deep disillusionment, disconnection or resentment that may also be mutual, what evidence do you have that any of this is going to be better at some point, later on? A divorce with no kids is way easier and cleaner than one with them - where you will have to deal with this person for the rest of your life.
Without committing to anything, I suggest you consult with a lawyer and find out the details of how a separation would shake out and consider your options. And think deeply about what you each think a married relationship is, and whether that resembles what you have with each other across the past two years. How is what you have different from an amicably separated couple, aside from a de facto oath of celibacy?
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