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Post by Isabellas39 on Sept 20, 2016 12:35:54 GMT -5
I missed a lot here..I have read the thread and I understand what the mods were trying to do. I have only had good experiences here..I may not share the same views as some, but that's life. I don't think you can please everyone every time, and some may disagree ..I think discussions should play out because we all wouldn't always agree.
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Post by snowman12345 on Sept 20, 2016 12:55:05 GMT -5
So, two, possibly three members, leaving the site over a "misunderstanding" is ridiculous? Whether it is a VOLUNTEER or a paid employee - the responsibility to make clear their intentions when they take an action is still on them.
Perception is key here. One's point of view and reaction to comments will always be different from anyone else's. One person's perception that there is increasing numbers of comments being negative towards one gender or another, can and will be different from your perception that there is not. But, if something has a cute little nomenclature, i.e., "mansplaining", then I would have to hazard a guess that it is pervasive and should be taken seriously.
Another two cents from me - one more and I'll owe you a nickel!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 13:15:48 GMT -5
If we are avoiding generalizations then I suggest disuse of the word "mansplaining." It is itself a generalization. Explaining like a man. Any particular man? No, it means men in general.
Not that I am a fan of telling people what they can and can't say. But the gist of all this hubbub is that generalizations led to all this so let's not generalize. Ok then don't use that word.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 20, 2016 13:39:10 GMT -5
I'll offer one perspective... First, I agree with snowman12345 that perception is key. But I'll also challenge whether there's even enough data on which to base a perception. Really, how many times have the mods intervened here? Is it even enough to claim a pattern? Is it fair to suggest the forum is in chaos - or more appropriate to call out a specific action you disagree with and evoke change? It's not like the mods here have demonstrated a pattern of abuse - with only a few interactions, there's hardly been opportunity to gauge feedback and shape how they engage here. Reality is that many of us come and go silently. Maybe because of the tone here, maybe because of crappy moderation (or lack thereof), or maybe just because it's their time. I'm not indifferent to losing HelenT or MountainRunner; I'd be sad regardless of their reason for leaving, even if it was a positive one. Some people vote with their voice to effect change; others vote with their feet, as seems to be the case here. Both can be effective, but in the latter case we also lose valuable friends. But the situation isn't so desperate that someone needs to blow themselves up to make a statement. Talk. People might listen. My point in the other thread is that not everybody sees the same thing. That doesn't mean indifference. But at the same time, there's a certain amount of self-resiliency required. It's a question of whether we, as a group, keep each other in check, or whether we expect a group of moderators to do it for us. Personally, I'd rather they just worry about the folks who can't act like adults, which fortunately doesn't happen too much here. FWIW, DC
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 18:50:41 GMT -5
I no longer feel welcome here, so I'm deleting myself. It hurts me that some new member's right to say hurtful things is more important than long-time members' ability to feel comfortable here by defending themselves, and that that that is the official policy (not how the policy is stated but that's the effect.) I have read the post several times and thought about my feelings regarding HelenT and Mountainrunner, and how I feel is very established in my mind, the challenge for me is if I am going to communciate those feelings properly. Here goes: First, understand that HelenT and Mountainrunner were both members who I followed and enjoyed both their thoughts and humor, and their give and take about virtually any issue. More than that I have grown to care about them as though they were good friends or family. I for one do not just sit back watch if my two of my sisters get pissed off and decide to never talk to anyone in the family ever again. Something at a minimum has to be done, like getting a dialog started between all offended the parties. Nothing can progress until this happens. Some one moderated out of the site for expressing their opinion. No posts were deleted. No posts were edited. No one was scolded by the Admin or the mods for anything they said. Some folks perceived a three-day temporary lock on a thread as a scold. It was not. I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding (devastated, in fact) but its as if the site is unraveling over the fact that there was a 72 hour period when ONE thread was locked, pending a brief discussion by the moderators, which resulted in NO ACTION other than reopening the closed thread. I'm beyond flummoxed. I can't figure out how to stop the hemorrhaging. I believe the problem that the Moderators and Admin fail to understand is the concept of substance versus appearance. Regarding being deleted or scolded or edited, substantively the right actions were taken, which were none, (but also sometimes it is the appearance of such that matters). I believe reading the thread nothing was wrong and that was the proper conclusion reached. Everything was fine until you evaluate the appearance. The thread was fine, HelenT was disagreeing with a generalization made by a new member, that women over 50 lose their biological urge. Mountainrunner came to HelenT's defense. Everything stopped until 3 days later a different male member revived the thread and criticized Mountainrunner. HelenT immediately spoke up disagreeing with the generalization that after 50 women lose their desire for intimacy. That is when Admin and the Moderators stepped in and froze the thread. Is it OK for the women to feel they did nothing wrong but they were the ones stopped and on who was called a 'personal foul' (sorry American football analogy) and were told to play nice. I did not read any attempt at something like an apology, only that the moderators talked it over and were letting the discussion continue. Apparently not the first time women have felt "Chauvinism" at our site. One suggestion; if we do not have a female moderator, we should create a position because their point of view must be heard and understood. PS Please do not hold my vile 'Richard' attacks against the message related here.
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Post by snowman12345 on Sept 20, 2016 18:51:22 GMT -5
I'll offer one perspective... First, I agree with snowman12345 that perception is key. But I'll also challenge whether there's even enough data on which to base a perception. Really, how many times have the mods intervened here? Is it even enough to claim a pattern? Is it fair to suggest the forum is in chaos - or more appropriate to call out a specific action you disagree with and evoke change? It's not like the mods here have demonstrated a pattern of abuse - with only a few interactions, there's hardly been opportunity to gauge feedback and shape how they engage here. Reality is that many of us come and go silently. Maybe because of the tone here, maybe because of crappy moderation (or lack thereof), or maybe just because it's their time. I'm not indifferent to losing HelenT or MountainRunner; I'd be sad regardless of their reason for leaving, even if it was a positive one. Some people vote with their voice to effect change; others vote with their feet, as seems to be the case here. Both can be effective, but in the latter case we also lose valuable friends. But the situation isn't so desperate that someone needs to blow themselves up to make a statement. Talk. People might listen. My point in the other thread is that not everybody sees the same thing. That doesn't mean indifference. But at the same time, there's a certain amount of self-resiliency required. It's a question of whether we, as a group, keep each other in check, or whether we expect a group of moderators to do it for us. Personally, I'd rather they just worry about the folks who can't act like adults, which fortunately doesn't happen too much here. FWIW, DC I am not sure what pattern we are talking about. My comments were aimed at one particular action. The perception that there is increasingly negative comments directed towards women is what we should be collecting data on. My understanding is that is the behavior that is causing some members to feel unwelcome. I have no idea if the moderators are good or bad or indifferent - I don't peruse the board enough to have an opinion on that. I do know this - when a person "blows themselves up" there are factors influencing that person's reaction that I have no knowledge of. I know what I don't know. I am not sure that poo-pooing their reaction is the answer.
OK - now I owe a nickel.
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Post by snowman12345 on Sept 20, 2016 18:53:47 GMT -5
I no longer feel welcome here, so I'm deleting myself. It hurts me that some new member's right to say hurtful things is more important than long-time members' ability to feel comfortable here by defending themselves, and that that that is the official policy (not how the policy is stated but that's the effect.) I have read the post several times and thought about my feelings regarding HelenT and Mountainrunner, and how I feel is very established in my mind, the challenge for me is if I am going to communciate those feelings properly. Here goes: First, understand that HelenT and Mountainrunner were both members who I followed and enjoyed both their thoughts and humor, and their give and take about virtually any issue. More than that I have grown to care about them as though they were good friends or family. I for one do not just sit back watch if my two of my sisters get pissed off and decide to never talk to anyone in the family ever again. Something at a minimum has to be done, like getting a dialog started between all offended the parties. Nothing can progress until this happens. No posts were deleted. No posts were edited. No one was scolded by the Admin or the mods for anything they said. Some folks perceived a three-day temporary lock on a thread as a scold. It was not. I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding (devastated, in fact) but its as if the site is unraveling over the fact that there was a 72 hour period when ONE thread was locked, pending a brief discussion by the moderators, which resulted in NO ACTION other than reopening the closed thread. I'm beyond flummoxed. I can't figure out how to stop the hemorrhaging. I believe the problem that the Moderators and Admin fail to understand is the concept of substance versus appearance. Regarding being deleted or scolded or edited, substantively the right actions were taken, which were none, (but also sometimes it is the appearance of such that matters). I believe reading the thread nothing was wrong and that was the proper conclusion reached. Everything was fine until you evaluate the appearance. The thread was fine, HelenT was disagreeing with a generalization made by a new member, that women over 50 lose their biological urge. Mountainrunner came to HelenT's defense. Everything stopped until 3 days later a different male member revived the thread and criticized Mountainrunner. HelenT immediately spoke up disagreeing with the generalization that after 50 women lose their desire for intimacy. That is when Admin and the Moderators stepped in and froze the thread. Is it OK for the women to feel they did nothing wrong but they were the ones stopped and on who was called a 'personal foul' (sorry American football analogy) and were told to play nice. I did not read any attempt at something like an apology, only that the moderators talked it over and were letting the discussion continue. Apparently not the first time women have felt "Chauvinism" at our site. One suggestion; if we do not have a female moderator, we should create a position because their point of view must be heard and understood. PS Please do not hold my vile 'Richard' attacks against the message related here. -------------------------------------THIS ABSOLUTELY!!----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 20, 2016 19:27:03 GMT -5
I posted this elsewhere, in Z's thread, but she's deleted her profile as well.... So, with that in mind:
I'd like to jump in here..... and give my thoughts, and those of Mountainrunner's, with her permission.
I don't think it's needed, but just in case, for those who haven't looked at the thread in question.....the issue has nothing to do with the actual words said in the thread, by anyone. There were generalization made by worksforme2, which MR called out as such. WFM2 acknowledged that he missed the fact he did, clarified that women over 50 here don't typically fit his generalization but stuck by his generalization for the general population, citing studies and his own personal observations.
End of story. They both moved on. Very respectful. Very adult. No hurt feelings.
In talking to MR both in PM's and since via email, that exchange had nothing to do with her decision to leave this forum. Dan's reply 4 day's later, and a general reply by the Mod's were.
Dan's reply was incorrect that there was no generalization, it was apparent and acknowledged by WFM2, but clarified. But regardless, Dan cited a previous thread that did go on and on, eventually becoming, as he said, a train wreck. That was seen by MR (and me) and wasn't the case here. His use of CAPS in his reply was also noted. That can be taken wrong, and is typically avoided in forums.
However, it was the generalized Mod's reply/statement that was the most damaging. Keeping in mind that the exchange was short, respectful, and no one's feelings were hurt, it appeared to be an over-reaction to the situation. Mentioning good online etiquette, hurt feelings, and taking generalizations personally. That was not the case in MR's reply. Therefore, she took it as an undeserved scolding.
It went further on to remind (her) everyone that is would help to remember that this is ONE person, giving his/her observations and opinions about a small number of people. As in Dan's reply, that was incorrect in this case, as it was a generalization about women over 50 (clarified later by WFM2 as not typically women over 50 here) which is a very LARGE number of people.
WFM2 was not immune either. The statement by the Mod's mentions using restraint...."perhaps it would be best to remember" when making statements to specify it's by personal experience. I don't know WFM2's thoughts on this, but MR found that offensive as well, on his behalf.
Personally, I agree with Dan that the forum need a guideline saying what the Mod's outlined. But not his reference that this seemed an opportune time and place to roll it out. His assertion that it wasn't directed at any one particular individual...by definition...would suggest that this *wasn't* an opportune time or place. That was unfortunately worded, and was also instrumental in MR's decision. I personally think his link to the permanent home for this statement and request to refocus the thread on the original topic was a good one, however, that request was also made there, leaving this subject with no home. I feel that was a mistake, and thank Z for giving it a home.
As for MR leaving....she regrets that she feels she has to. I and many others, implored her to stay. She is a strong and needed voice on this forum. But she replied with something that not only changed my mind, dramatically, but something I think all on this forum should hear, and be mindful of.
She recounted how, in her marriage to an abusive controller/refuser, she was constantly belittled and scolded for her words and ideas... Here, I'll let her speak for herself.
"For years in my marriage, I allowed my ex to belittle my opinions, make me out to be overly sensitive and to undercut my passion. It didn't matter how carefully I worded things, he always managed to make me feel stupid and wrong. Dan's and then the Moderator responses made me feel the same way."
Is that wrong of her to feel that way? No. As we all learn here, our emotions are ours. It's our reality. The damage of a SM marriage is deep and at times, incomprehensible to others. It's our own private pain and sensitivity. It cannot be questioned.
She also went on to illustrate what she meant. I found it extraordinarily useful, and also a reminder of how MR was so good at taking difficult concepts and boiling them down for the likes of me....she wrote:
Imagine you are sitting in a circle at a support group. Person A makes a statement. Person B disagrees. Person A holds firm. Person B shrugs and lets it go. At the next meeting days later, the leader says to Person B "Hey you overreacted last week." A third person says they don't think that's fair. So the leader stands up and says this meeting is over and everyone has to leave.
How would you feel if you were Person B? Would you feel that this is a safe environment for you to express yourself and share your hurts and thoughts?
But it was these words of hers, in a PM that really spoke to me:
(my emphasis with bolding and underlining)
But if I stay here and let this go, I'm betraying myself, treating myself as poorly as my ex did. I would have to accept the viewpoint of the Admin and moderators as appropriate. What is the point in standing up for yourself if you just crater under if your point of view is simply dismissed?
I don't believe that I am free to be honest and open here. I don't believe it is safe for me to express my opinion regardless of how careful I am to be respectful. This was an extremely mild interaction compared to many other threads, and yet it was worthy of being locked down and then being told to play nice. I'm not a little girl who needs to be told how to behave. I was appropriate and adult. If my comments don't fit the standards of this forum, then it's just not for me.
Can you see the obvious reference to the years of abuse that she endured at the hands of her abusive ex-spouse? I certainly can and it made me cry. I've been there as well. Belittled, told that I was too sensitive, that I took things wrong...that I was wrong, wrong, wrong. I...and MR...were surely victims of gaslighting, but that leaves lasting scars...and PTSD like sensitivities.
And ultimately, I think that's the lesson that can be learned here. Not only from MR...who is leaving us with a very important lesson as only she can do, but also Helentishappy, and here in this thread even, by @zumbamami...who I've just realized...has deleted her account now as well.
There are sensitivities for all people who come here that relate directly back to their abuse in a SM marriage, sometimes decades of that abuse. To their great credit, Dan and the Mod's are very aware of that as well, and spoke directly to that. I applaud them for that.
Can we be too sensitive? Again, no. It's our emotions that are at stake, our pain we have to endure, and hopefully someday...get past. As the Mod's noted, we all need to feel safe here. MR obviously did not. The tone and content...and application of the statement in regard to her comments, took her back in time to that abuse.
Dan and the Mod's aren't responsible for that, not directly. What they did was needed. . I completely agree with Dans praise of the moderators. They are tireless and overworked for volunteers, and generally do a fantastic job with this forum.
It was just unfortunately timed, worded and in my opinion, ill placed.
My only goal here is to explain what the thoughts and feelings are of my dear friend Mountainrunner, and my thoughts and feelings as well. To illustrate what occurred, in my view and hers. And to stand with her and say we all need to be mindful in our words and post's that everyone here....is damaged in someway or the other.
That's worth remembering.
That's a lesson MR should be proud of.
I'm very proud of her. I will miss her here.
IJU
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Post by JMX on Sept 20, 2016 20:04:00 GMT -5
Recommended reading: Shakespeare's "Much ado about nothing". Hee hee. Fiery - this is my absolute favorite response to mansplainin'-gate. Cuz it never existed.
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 20, 2016 20:09:45 GMT -5
Recommended reading: Shakespeare's "Much ado about nothing". The general topic?
Or me?
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Post by JMX on Sept 20, 2016 20:16:22 GMT -5
itsjustus - not to speak for Fiery - but I think she means the topic in general. Your explanation was very detailed and I agree with you. Too many have jumped on the "women feel disrespected here" bandwagon, in the name of - I don't know what? And, IMO, blew this into a trajectory that ignored the real reasons behind the two leaving - in the name of (get this!) protecting the women!!! Ridiculous. You actually investigated it and came to the correct conclusion.
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Post by JMX on Sept 20, 2016 20:21:16 GMT -5
Caveat - I was a part of this too. I am also laughing at myself.
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 20, 2016 22:25:21 GMT -5
itsjustus - not to speak for Fiery - but I think she means the topic in general. Your explanation was very detailed and I agree with you. Too many have jumped on the "women feel disrespected here" bandwagon, in the name of - I don't know what? And, IMO, blew this into a trajectory that ignored the real reasons behind the two leaving - in the name of (get this!) protecting the women!!! Ridiculous. You actually investigated it and came to the correct conclusion. Thanks. Funny...and a bit ironic....that was one of my ex's favorite quotes when I wanted to talk about our relationship.... "Much ado about nothing" while she made much ado about everyone else's something.... kind of took me back to why she's my ex....
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 21, 2016 2:45:59 GMT -5
Good gravy. I agree with JMX and Fiery that this has been way overblown. I'll probably piss off several folks, but seriously, have we been reading the same posts? WFM2 did not disparage women over 50. He didn't even mention women over 50. What he *did* say is that women under 50 have a higher sex drive. It's a commonly-held generalization based on typical menopause age, effects, and sex surveys. Very few people would disagree that (again, as a generalization) younger people have a higher sex drive. Instead, what was inferred was the worst possible interpretation - that women over 50 had no sex drive, and by inference, the women of ILIASM are sexually undesirable. Not even close to the intent of his statement. And this... when the women here already know they outshine the stereotypes. Really, folks... we *know* we're living proof as exceptions to the stereotypes. Women of all ages who actually admit to wanting sex. Guys who really miss foreplay, etc. Do we *really* have to caveat every common generalization or stereotype reference with "except the great people of ILIASM" to keep from being misinterpreted? MR talks about feeling offended that she feels targeted as an example, and she doesn't need to be told how to behave. I'd agree that she doesn't need to be told, but at the same time she assumes she's being singled out when maybe this incident just happened to be the one that triggered a comment - that's happened to all of us at some point. But in the same threads are cries for more intervention. How "others" should be told how to speak, to "tone it down" or whatever. So, which is it? We expect mods to intervene or censor those we deem too coarse / harsh / outspoken / whatever... but "others", of course. Not "us". "They" need to be kept in check. But it doesn't work like that. Maybe it's just "because I'm a guy", but I'm more of a free-market mindset - the membership is very capable of policing itself. Let the moderators focus on the truly bad apples - which the membership will promptly flag. Will the dialog be too aggressive / explicit / whatever for some people? Yes - this is a sexually-oriented discussion board, it will always be thus. Should we dilute the discussions here so everyone feels warm and fuzzy? Hell, no. The often brutally honest commentary here is precisely what makes ILIASM so valuable. I don't like every opinion, and I'm sure many don't like all of mine - so what? I'd rather hear a blunt opinion that challenges my perspective, even if I don't like it. Most of us got that wake-up call when we arrived at ILIASM. My earlier point (not sure if it was here or in Z's thread) is that people seem to be going nuclear over a single incident. There is no pattern of members being targeted, slighted, whatever. If people are pissed off about how this one scenario was handled, then fine - be vocal about it. Evoke change. Shape the future of how the forum is run. But for crying out loud, let's stop the drama.
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Post by baza on Sept 21, 2016 3:25:48 GMT -5
"If" you are in the throes of getting out of an ILIASM shithole, or have recently done so, the pressure you are under is immense. It is not at all unusual to be on a hair trigger. An otherwise innocuous word, in an otherwise innocuous post, and the hair trigger can be activated And what (to me) might look innocuous, may look to someone else as something highly significant. - Sometimes it might be "what" is said that pulls the trigger. Sometimes the trigger might be an "interpretation" of what was said. Sometimes the trigger might be the "timing" of when it was said, if that falls at a time when the recipient is in a particularly vulnerable moment. And sometimes it might be a perfect storm of "all the above". - And the "interpretation" and "timing" aspects are matters beyond anyone's control. - Cut yourself some slack. You cannot possibly know who might be on a hair trigger at a moment in time. Cut the members who chose to leave some slack. They've made a valid choice for themselves, and a choice that can be reversed if the cold hard light of day alters their thinking at a future time. Cut the moderators some slack. They have a thankless job.
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