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Post by jim44444 on Jun 4, 2017 18:27:29 GMT -5
There were several recent threads that touched upon the importance of looks in a relationship. Although most responders stipulated that looks were not their primary attractor for a long term relationship many acknowledged the role of looks in an initial random attraction. I admit to being in those camps. But why? Why do I find attractive people attractive to begin with? And by what definition are they attractive?
There are standards of attractiveness historically and currently that I do not define as attractive. For example, the Japanese Geisha presented as the ideal woman has zero attractiveness to me. And the elongated brass ringed necks of the Kayan Lahwi women of Burma bring me to think of carnival freak shows not romance. But the men of those cultures see those women differently.
All of which lead me to consider the role of society and media in our brainwashing of what we view as attractive. Now we can point to advertisers as the evil culprits that present an unattainable standard for beauty all so they might sell a product. However I feel it is more insidious than that, I feel we are all culpable to some extent. I will try to explain what I mean.
I follow several tumblr blogs that are of erotic content. The images are well posed with an artistic flair. However, the women are all superbly fit and appear to be under 30. So the underlying message is that only young and unrealistically fit women are sexually attractive and desirable and all others should probably join a convent. Before we conclude that is an aberration of the pornography industry I must point out that these blogs are the work of people that do not always fit that mould. And this also exists in the non-sexual mainstream like myfitnesspal on instagram where about 70% of the people pictures are of young superfit women and yet their Web site talks about fitness for everyone and all body types. Their words do not match their presentation.
So why does our society continue to put forth the false ideas that gray hair or stretch marks or wrinkles or any of a thousand other normal human characteristics are unattractive? Why do we as consumers put up with that bullshit? How can we counteract the message so that our kids and grandkids will not be saddled with the effects of false expectations?
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Post by baza on Jun 4, 2017 19:49:44 GMT -5
I believe that there is a commercial imperative behind all this.
Obviously if you were to trying to market a product (in the "35 and older demographic) to give you wrinkles and grey hair, you probably wouldn't sell much of the product. Most of the demographic would already have the wrinkles and grey hair and your product would be superfluous.
So commercially, you are best to promote a position that wrinkles and grey hair are NOT attractive and offer your product which of course is to disguise wrinkles and grey hair. You get an appropriate "celebrity" to endorse the product, and the sheeple follow.
Unfortunately, I think the levels of marketing (particularly target marketing) our kids and grandkids are going to be force fed is going to get worse, way worse, than my generation was subject to. It gets pounded in to them from day #1 of their lives.
I ain't seeing an end to it
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Post by DryCreek on Jun 4, 2017 22:24:48 GMT -5
Visual medium = prioritize visual appeal. Few are offended by seeing attractive people, and plenty are sold by the visual.
Audio medium = pleasant voice, speech skills, sharp wit. Or maybe brazen, salacious, shocking, etc. As they say, "you have a face made for radio".
Scientific publications = intellectual content, compelling topics.
And the bar is always being lowered, in an effort to be more edgy than the next guy.
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Post by baza on Jun 5, 2017 0:07:20 GMT -5
In my jurisdiction, there's a tv show called "The Gruen Transfer" which is based on the advertising industry. It's a panel show and features people who work in the industry.
It's very good.
Within it each week is a segment where two advertising agencies are given a brief to write an advertisement for a product that is going to be really difficult to "sell".
Say that "Smoking is Good For You", or "Terrorism is a Good Thing", or similar.
Invariably these *advertisements* are very funny, and often contain some very deep thinking on the subject matter too.
Enough to get you thinking yourself.
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Post by worksforme2 on Jun 5, 2017 6:58:51 GMT -5
Much of what you are seeing I think is a reflection of the times and our culture. I prefer quality over quantity most of the time. Unfortunately, whether you are talking relationships or food it seems (at least in the US) more and more either life or cultural indoctrination steers us into quick fixes or immediate gratification. We are often described as the "now" generation. The result as I see it is a swallowing of the quantitative and qualitative thought process. We are all encouraged to cram in as much of life as possible, to go for the gusto, as opposed to savoring the moment or the experience. The accumulation of life experience seems to be valued less over the pursuit of the adrenaline rush. Thus the idealization of the perfect physical specimen. The more "eye candy" we are exposed to the more it seems acceptable as the norm.
One place I see this on a regular basis is at the dating site, POF. A priority feature asks members to view a picture and decide if they want to meet the person pictured. The feature allows a member to view the profile of the person pictured. Almost none of the women who check yes they want to meet me have taken the time to view my profile to see if we have anything in common, what my views are, how I describe myself, what I am looking for in a partner or what constitutes a deal breaker for me. I expect men take the same route initially when viewing females. It just strikes me as a case of the packaging taking precedence over the product. It's a reflection of our society.
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Post by WindSister on Jun 6, 2017 9:02:25 GMT -5
This topic fascinates me as well. Attraction. What is "beauty?" The standards. All of it.
Do men feel pressure to be a certain way for women in today's society? I mean, I see the ads of the "perfectly ripped" men but those type really do not turn me on at all because they just look like they would need things from me I have no interest in giving. (honestly) I am judging them by their six-pack-abbed cover, admittedly, but it seems like it would just be too much work to be involved with some guy like that. Could I enjoy a beer by the fire ever? Or is it all gyms and weights and look at me, I am awesome? Would they be looking for the perfect girl to match them? I am clearly not that girl, so the whole point is mute anyway.
Yes, I am attracted to "certain things" and not attracted to others. I think my bar is pretty low for "looks" though there is a bar, if that makes sense? I mean, yeah, certain types I just couldn't get with and I won't elaborate it because I wouldn't want to offend anyone.
This might seem bold to say, BUT.... sometimes... maybe.... it feels like women are more forgiving of men's looks than men are of women's looks. Right? Wrong?
It's a topic I have explored a few places here. I look at my husband I feel a total RUSH of love - like I have literally never felt in my life before. His "looks" turn me on but more than that it's the "whole" of him that turns me on. So even as he gains a few pounds, gets thinner hair, grayer, wrinkly, my love doesn't change. My attraction is STILL there. I hope he will feel the same, and so far he has been consistent - I did gain love weight and lost it and he never swayed in how he treated me at either size.
The standards do always change. Even my younger self couldn't fit what they are today. I kinda fit them back in the day - big hair, nice boobs, curvy not skinny. Now it seems boobs aren't a thing - men want perfect pink vaginas and flat abs (they don't even care about boobs anymore??). I don't fulfill that beauty standard at all.
I don't know -- I like getting older. Youth really is WASTED on the YOUNG. lol I had the bikini body but was so insecure and shy -- wasted. Now with brown spots and rolls, I am finally feeling okay in my own skin. Good thing I have one man that wants what I offer. I don't know if I'd have it in me to play the dating game again.
When I see that picture of the elderly couple in the other thread I see BEAUTY but I know people who saw it and exclaimed, "OIY!! I can't UNSEE THAT image!!!" I find that attitude sad and pathetic and I feel bad for them because someday they will be there too. Has society made us so superficial we can't accept what our bodies naturally do with grace? That's too bad.
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Post by WindSister on Jun 6, 2017 9:08:42 GMT -5
Oh, and I have a theory why boobs are no longer a "thing" for men -- it's because they are always exposed. The mystery is gone. But, vaginas.... usually covered. PINK vaginas (the unattainable, can we be REAL about the color here?) are the NEW mystery - the new "Thing." Or maybe not. What do I know what guys want, but it just seems like it from what we see out there.
So what is standard beauty? The hard to attain, the mysterious.... the "whatever" most people CAN'T easily achieve.
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Post by wewbwb on Jun 6, 2017 15:02:49 GMT -5
I have a theory why boobs are no longer a "thing" for men - I guess I'm "old fashioned". |
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Post by jim44444 on Jun 6, 2017 20:15:29 GMT -5
WindSister said I thought that picture was beautiful on many levels. Real people sharing real love.
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Post by JMX on Jun 6, 2017 21:12:35 GMT -5
Hmm... I will never be "beautiful" but I am adorable. I am okay with that. I am a guy's girl. I know "you" wish now, that you had paid me more attention when we were in our 20s. You know it would have turned out better.
I know, in person, that I am charming and people gravitate towards me. I also know that I oooze sex in real life. I have fucked so many men with my eyes alone. I know they feel it too. I feel it coming back from most - definitely not all.
My issue is - I need constant mental stimulation. Constant.
I suppose it comes from within, but I am seriously grasping at straws here.
I am not enough for ME.
Which, I suppose, is every woman's issue to one degree or another.
I, sincerely, almost punched my husband when he slapped me on the ass tonight.
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Post by baza on Jun 6, 2017 21:59:39 GMT -5
Dating site as it stands = photo and brief "information".
So naturally, the "look" is a pivotal driver.
Idiot idea I just thought of.
Dating site = brief information, but no photo.
Instead of a photo, the potential dater is given a random subject - say "Keynesian Economics" or "The Role of a 9/16th Ring Spanner in an Engine Re-Build" or "What A Great Bloke Malcolm Turnbull Is" or "The Engineering Behind a Push Up Bra" or "The Case for Throwing the Brisbane Lions Out of the AFL" etc etc etc - and is invited to compile a thousand word essay on the random subject.
I reckon you'd find out more about the potential dater and their attitudes than you ever would from a photo.
You'd eliminate those interested only in looks straight off.
You'd eliminate the barely literate.
You'd eliminate the imbeciles.
Time for another scotch, and to finish off that spliff I think.
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Post by Caris on Jun 10, 2017 21:16:03 GMT -5
Jim, isn't it human nature that men find young, smooth skinned women more appealing? Men (in general) want healthy, fit, young women to bear their offspring. Men are very visual, so I think it's got more to do with biology than advertisers.
The reality is that I can't compete with my younger self, and more men found me attractive then than they do now. That's just a fact of life when you develop age related wear and tear.
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Post by Caris on Jun 10, 2017 21:23:32 GMT -5
Dating site as it stands = photo and brief "information". So naturally, the "look" is a pivotal driver. Idiot idea I just thought of. Dating site = brief information, but no photo. Instead of a photo, the potential dater is given a random subject - say "Keynesian Economics" or "The Role of a 9/16th Ring Spanner in an Engine Re-Build" or "What A Great Bloke Malcolm Turnbull Is" or "The Engineering Behind a Push Up Bra" or "The Case for Throwing the Brisbane Lions Out of the AFL" etc etc etc - and is invited to compile a thousand word essay on the random subject. I reckon you'd find out more about the potential dater and their attitudes than you ever would from a photo. You'd eliminate those interested only in looks straight off. You'd eliminate the barely literate. You'd eliminate the imbeciles. Time for another scotch, and to finish off that spliff I think. Baz, I fell in love with someone on EP before I'd seen his picture. I fell for his person first, that he was handsome was icing on the cake...not that I actually met him in person. I think that happens more for women while men need the looks first. |
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Post by baza on Jun 10, 2017 21:42:58 GMT -5
Well, Ms enna and I had months worth of conversations about all manner of things before I even had a clue what she looked like, and further months after that before we eyeballed each other.
But - if I was to "recommend" that someone adopt a "courting" policy of -
- only contact by internet for the first 3 months
- add in some phone contact for the next couple of months and a photo or two (no dick or tits shots !!)
- no meeting for the first 6 months
then I think my advice - above - would be met by most people saying - "worst. advice. ever." or "you must be fucking joking".
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Post by jim44444 on Jun 11, 2017 2:03:06 GMT -5
Jim, isn't it human nature that men find young, smooth skinned women more appealing? Men (in general) want healthy, fit, young women to bear their offspring. Men are very visual, so I think it's got more to do with biology than advertisers. The reality is that I can't compete with my younger self, and more men found me attractive then than they do now. That's just a fact of life when you develop age related wear and tear. For the purpose of procreation I would agree with your statement, men want young women. By the same token, women want an older, proven successful men to father their chldren. It is a matter of raising the odds that a child will survive to adulthood. Those standards served humanity well during our evolution but are less important today. Even the concept of procreation has changed from having as many children as possible to only having the ones you want. My point in the original rambling was why do we as a society today, with all our enlightenment, still ascribe to the ancient mores that only the young are attractive? Why are we unable or unwilling to admit that sexy and attractive can encompass strech marks, curves, wrinkles, gray hair, bald heads and all the other characteristics of humans as they age? I will concede that it is only my opinion but I feel that sexy is a state of mind first and body dynamics second. I am not disparaging the idea that a resonably fit body is conducive to being sexy in that being able to physically engage with each other is a good thing. However, resonably fit is not what is shoved down the throats of men and women as a life goal. The 'ideal' presented in supermarket tabloids, pseudo-health magazines or even tumblr represents something that few people can achieve or maintain. Genetics and life get in the way. |
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