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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 9:53:52 GMT -5
"What if someone is "Choosing to Stay", and it is clear to some of us that he or she is pretty close to being in serious harm's way: either physical, emotional, or financial. Because he or she posted in "Choosing to Stay", we are not supposed to point this out? Are we not "allowed" to urge this person to at least consider the risk of staying?"
The majority of people who have posted here who have been in abusive and/or dangerous situations did not listen to people who told them they were in danger and needed to leave. Little Lamb is perhaps the most recent example. She was pregnant and married to a convicted pedophile.
Along with the explanation of the board could be included links to inoformation about signs of abuse and how to safely ;eave an abuser. People committed to staying could be advised to check out the links first to ensure that they are not choosing to stay in a dangerous situation.
People also could choose to PM people who appear to be in danger by staying with their abuser.
As always, however, we have no control over others' behavior.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 31, 2018 12:10:42 GMT -5
Admin and Mods, I appreciate the mention of stepping in when discussions get less than supportive. About a year before EPs demise, I was on the fence of leaving or staying. I drove myself crazy with the back-and-forth, weighing each option with their pros and cons. Leave. Stay. Leave. Stay. Leave. Stay. With all this going on in my head, I also faced criticism and bullying on EP. I really didn't need that bullshit piled onto an already difficult time. My only request if we move forward with the board is to be respectful of one another's decisions. We aren't flies on the walls of each other's homes, and we only know what gets discussed here.
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Post by nyctos on Jul 31, 2018 14:40:31 GMT -5
Been thinking about this a bit more over the past 24 hours. Much of the following is predicated on the fact that the majority of members post nothing, and another large % join, post one story then piss off never to be seen again - resulting in the level of active members being quite small. Brother @shynjdude puts it at about 200 at any given time (total membership is 1,200) and I think thats a credible figure...and it means that only about 1 in 6 members are - or become - active members) So this is to question the advisability of making changes for the (a) non contributing members and (b) the "one off" members. Seems to me to be trying to cater for a minority of contributors (although by numbers they are the majority of the members) who are highly unlikely to become active members. Alternative. Just re-write the existing introduction to say something to the effect - "if you don't want to discuss your situation in your post, just sign it off by saying "no advice please" or "no dissenting opinions please"....which I figure the existing members would abide by. I can offer a little insight into why this is (in case there's any confusion on it). I initially came to this board not long ago because I was in pain, not because I was trying to get divorce advice. If I'd made up my mind to divorce is be going to a different board or not anywhere at all. The perspectives on this board, while not inaccurate, have caused a lot more pain themselves and frankly I guess I'm a little gun-shy about additional postings (not to mention being accused of being a troll for what I thought was a relatively mild posting). And I don't feel I'm ready to just divorce suddenly. If it's like this for many people, it could explain the large number of lurking members. Given all this, I'd suggest "staying for now" as a title.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 31, 2018 15:12:14 GMT -5
I can offer a little insight into why this is (in case there's any confusion on it). I initially came to this board not long ago because I was in pain, not because I was trying to get divorce advice. If I'd made up my mind to divorce is be going to a different board or not anywhere at all. The perspectives on this board, while not inaccurate, have caused a lot more pain themselves and frankly I guess I'm a little gun-shy about additional postings (not to mention being accused of being a troll for what I thought was a relatively mild posting). And I don't feel I'm ready to just divorce suddenly. If it's like this for many people, it could explain the large number of lurking members. Given all this, I'd suggest "staying for now" as a title. That is helpful nyctos. I think after being active here for a while (and also jaded by our own experiences) some of us can forget how hard and painful it can be when you are first attempting to come to terms with your harsh reality. I'll be honest, I've stayed away from this thread because I've been trying to fight my internal reaction of "wouldn't this end up just being a 'safe place' for those who don't want to deal with the truth?" But I don't want to be critical because despite me making the opposite choice, I know there are many legitimate reasons for staying and perhaps a 'safe space' really is needed. (I think it's going to be hard for me to keep my mouth shut though so I just likely won't frequent that new area much.) My vote on the title is "Choosing to Stay" as opposed to "Staying for Now", as the latter implies it's a stop-over while moving towards someday leaving your SM rather than it being a perfectly legitimate choice on its own.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 31, 2018 15:21:33 GMT -5
I'm fine with "Choosing to Stay" as a title. But I still have some "what ifs" to ask about: a) What if someone is "Choosing to Stay", and it is clear to some of us that he or she is pretty close to being in serious harm's way: either physical, emotional, or financial. Because he or she posted in "Choosing to Stay", we are not supposed to point this out? Are we not "allowed" to urge this person to at least consider the risk of staying? If we are required to NOT tell someone "I think you are at risk of harm from your dedication to staying"... someone help write the blurb that will go in the sticky, as I don't know how to do that. b) What if someone is a vocal proponent of "Stay and Cheat", and persistently nudges other "stayers" to consider outsourcing? Is that OK in the "Choosing to Stay" forum? After all, it is a form of "choosing to stay", right? If that's not OK... someone help write the blurb that excludes that flavor of "staying". c) What if "Choosing to Stay" starts attracting well-intentioned folks to start "advising" all the "stayers"... and they start advising: do more chores; take out for romantic dinners; just wear some sexy lingerie for him; yada yada yada... we experienced (if somewhat jaded) members are NOT allowed to warn that this MIGHT not work? We are not allowed to point out "if you tried it and it doesn't work IT'S NOT YOU; time to consider other options"? If mentioning "bacon-scented candles don't work" is not OK... someone help write the blurb that excludes disparaging bad advice, because I don't know how to add that to the "rules" of that board. I'm serious. If we are going to open this up as a board, I need someone to draft the "rules sticky" (and post it here for further discussion), as I'm having trouble seeing how to craft it. What -- exactly -- is disallowed (or at least discouraged) in the "Choosing to Stay" board? Regarding these three concerns: I think we have enough active longer term members here who have chosen to stay, who will be frequenting this new board and can easily chime in with "common-sense" replies. I'm thinking of people like DryCreek, hopingforachange, h -- people who have chosen to stay but don't hesitate to also point out bad advise or challenge thinking without sugarcoating. Just because we will now have this safer space for those who choose to stay to share, doesn't mean all common sense goes out the window, it just means those posters likely won't be as criticized as much as they currently are in the SM Issues section. (And personally, if I read something there that shows someone doesn't seem to realize they are in danger or another member is giving ridiculously bad advise, I'm still going to point it out, whether against the rules or not.)
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Post by DryCreek on Jul 31, 2018 16:11:16 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I've stayed away from this thread because I've been trying to fight my internal reaction of "wouldn't this end up just being a 'safe place' for those who don't want to deal with the truth?“ I agree that this hazard exists. When “you don’t know what you don’t know”, and you’re unwilling to hear a different perspective, you’ll live in a very narrow world. A la “But, this is the way we’ve always done it”. I think it’s a bit of an experiment that might go bust, but it’s a segment of the community that isn’t really served here today. (It is, however, served by some other sites, mostly religious-oriented; in the end, we may find that pointing folks elsewhere serves them better. Though those sites often have a different undertone, and are focused on trying to fix and not just accept/cope.) Many folks here may have to avoid the section to keep from pulling their hair out in frustration at the participants. ;-)
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Post by flashjohn on Jul 31, 2018 16:23:18 GMT -5
I respect those who choose to stay, and am happy to help support them. It is a hard road.
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Post by Admin on Jul 31, 2018 16:46:51 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I've stayed away from this thread because I've been trying to fight my internal reaction of "wouldn't this end up just being a 'safe place' for those who don't want to deal with the truth?" I almost want to smack you for holding back! (Please don't do that in the future.) I'm not fishing for "group think" here. I'm not looking for a rubber stamp. I want an earnest discussion about the pros and cons of this idea. In case it wasn't clear -- reading between the lines of what I've posted so far -- I'm wrestling the same concern. That is EXACTLY the genesis of my question "What purpose would this board serve that 'Sexless Marriage Issues' doesn't? ". I don't exactly see why "these are my issues, but I'm planning to stay" doesn't fit in the SMI board. Regarding these three concerns: I think we have enough active longer term members here who have chosen to stay, who will be frequenting this new board and can easily chime in with "common-sense" replies. I'm thinking of people like DryCreek , hopingforachange , h -- people who have chosen to stay but don't hesitate to also point out bad advise or challenge thinking without sugarcoating. Just because we will now have this safer space for those who choose to stay to share, doesn't mean all common sense goes out the window, it just means those posters likely won't be as criticized as much as they currently are in the SM Issues section. ^^^ THIS I agree with. (And personally, if I read something there that shows someone doesn't seem to realize they are in danger or another member is giving ridiculously bad advise, I'm still going to point it out, whether against the rules or not.) ^^^ THIS I support!
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Post by hopingforachange on Jul 31, 2018 17:37:46 GMT -5
I did a quick read, but I couldn't in good conscience not tell someone to get out of they are being abused in any fashion.
Maybe we need to include in the sticky that the support offered in three new board is not for the marriage but for the member/person/ individual.
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Post by northstarmom on Jul 31, 2018 18:01:18 GMT -5
"Maybe we need to include in the sticky that the support offered in three new board is not for the marriage but for the member/person/ individual."
No because that's what we virtually always offer.
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Post by choosinghappy on Jul 31, 2018 19:29:34 GMT -5
I'll be honest, I've stayed away from this thread because I've been trying to fight my internal reaction of "wouldn't this end up just being a 'safe place' for those who don't want to deal with the truth?" I almost want to smack you for holding back! (Please don't do that in the future.) I'm not fishing for "group think" here. I'm not looking for a rubber stamp. I want an earnest discussion about the pros and cons of this idea. In case it wasn't clear -- reading between the lines of what I've posted so far -- I'm wrestling the same concern. That is EXACTLY the genesis of my question "What purpose would this board serve that 'Sexless Marriage Issues' doesn't? ". I don't exactly see why "these are my issues, but I'm planning to stay" doesn't fit in the SMI board. I held back because I don’t have a dog in this fight. I hear multiple people who have chosen to stay, saying that they want this and think it would be valuable. Therefore, it doesn’t really matter what *I* think because it wouldn’t be a place for me anyway. But as for putting “these are my issues but I’m planning to stay” posts in a Choosing to Stay board vs the SM Issues board: It seems the new board would be a place for support from others in a similar situation (commiserating, if you will) but where posters don’t need to worry about getting criticized or given advise they aren’t looking for (which is what they often receive in the SM Issues board). Again: a safe space. It seems there is a need/desire for this.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jul 31, 2018 19:52:34 GMT -5
I'd like to add this to the discussion, for what it's worth, I still deal with a 'victim' mentality. So yes I too can relate to wanting a safe place to vent and not want criticism or advise. The dream seams to be, for now, that I find another victim of a SM and we can openly heal our wounds together.
A good, mentor friend of mine warns me " GreatCoastal that's not a very favorable way to present yourself, always the victim, people aren't going to want to hear that for very long. That doesn't leave you bringing much to the table and offering a whole lot, does it?" And he is right!
I said to my friend, " I would be open to sharing my 4700 posts with someone who has been there, lived through a SM, they would relate and understand. It's all true why should I hide it or be ashamed of it?""
Again, I was advised," maybe not a very good idea. it's the past, move on, learn from it, you are going to drive away some very good potential partners by playing the victim."
Damnit I struggle with this. it's a tough point, and an important one as I move forward. I want and need that kind of encouragement and still need sympathy and understanding for what I endured. Tough call.
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Post by Admin on Aug 1, 2018 14:50:27 GMT -5
Maybe we need to include in the sticky that the support offered in three new board is not for the marriage but for the member/person/ individual. No because that's what we virtually always offer. Thank you to hopingforachange and northstarmom for helping me put a finger EXACTLY on my dilemma. (And thank you all for continuing to discuss this point). With their help, I'm finally able to verbalize what has been SERIOUSLY nagging me: the following two statements are at odds: - The way to "support" someone by going along with what they say the want. - The way to "support" someone by telling them what they need to hear, not what they want to hear. This is the crux of my ambivalence about the whole concept of the new board. Our whole forum has been much more about the second type of "support". A bit of tough love, fortunately generally delivered with earnest care for the well-being of the other. I'm afraid those who only want the first kind of "support" will be depriving themselves of that tough love, which has proved SO IMPORTANT for SO MANY of us. My dilemma is/has been: do I (we) want to facilitate that by creating a board where it is more likely to happen? As concerned as I am about it, this thread (and a few private discussions) has ALSO convinced me it's probably not so bad if someone is seeking that kind of support and they get a dose of it in the ILIASM forum. Community is still community, and those "Choosing to Stay" will benefit from any community they find here. And also that the general level of earnest support we offer here will NOT make moderation of that board a new and unwanted hassle for the moderators. So... the "sticky" for the board has become rather concise; read it in a following post and comment.
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Post by Admin on Aug 1, 2018 14:56:54 GMT -5
Draft "sticky" for forthcoming "Choosing To Stay" board:
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Post by baza on Aug 1, 2018 19:58:15 GMT -5
If it is any help, I will offer a "moral" arguement.
Refraining from comment when a member appears hell bent on engaging in something harmful to themselves - say staying in an abusive LIASM deal - would amount to negligence.
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