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Post by Handy on Apr 6, 2020 22:12:17 GMT -5
Apocrypha ..... Maybe you can share what part of it you found to be helpful or insightful.Relationships are more than love connections. Other thing influence why women pair up with men. Social and economic reasons seem to be important to many women.
My ideas about marriage were formed in the 1950 and 1960 where the H worked and the W stayed home with the kids. This idea where the W earns as much as the H is different than what life was like for me for a long time. I understand it on paper but never experienced the woman earning anything more than pocket change.
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Post by baza on Apr 7, 2020 3:33:11 GMT -5
I think I'm in the leaving eventually camp, with the stated goal of first getting my shit together, and launching our youngest (16) child. That said, what would it take for me to leave right now? 1. Confirmation of infidelity. Nothing recent, but there have been a couple of situations over the years where I do wonder. There is enough smoke that my gut tells me there must be fire, and on those 4am trips to the bathroom these thoughts often intrude. They were the catalyst that got me really thinking about the totality of our relationship, researching on the web and at some point discovering ILIASM. Any evidence of infidelity is long gone, so absent an admission I will likely never know the truth. If my suspicions were to be somehow confirmed, my "Eventually" timeline would transform to "Today". Sitting here, I don't know that I have a concrete #2, 3 or 4. Now that my eyes are open, I have noticed a trajectory that I think will cause me to say "enough" sooner than later. The SM was one thing, but the complete removal of affection, touching, etc. is another level. It took me a couple of months to notice, but once my eyes were open to that I started to see other things. The very latest is a propensity for my wife to "talk over" me or show signs of frustration if I have a differing opinion. It often seems to me she wants to talk "at me", and not really have a conversation at all. She has always been talkative in the extreme, but this sort of behavior is new. Mixed in with that is talk of plans for when we are empty-nesters, what we would do if one or both lost jobs in this downturn, etc. So confusing. Am I just picking up on this now that my radar is up, or am I experiencing a sort of confirmation bias? I don't know. Either way, I'm having a hard time keeping a lid on the resentment. What essential difference would it make if you did find out your missus' had cheated on you a couple of times some years ago Brother bozodeclowne ? It wouldn't change her current attitude or behaviour one iota. For that matter, what difference would it make if you found out conclusively that she had not cheated on you a couple of times some years ago ? That wouldn't change her current attitude or behaviour by an iota either. Truly Brother, your problem appears to be the current attitude and behaviour your missus exhibits in the here and now. Is what your missus did (or didn't do) some years ago, all that relevant to her attitude and behaviour here and now, today ? You are probably going to have to make your choice(s) on current facts, not on what might (or might not) have happened some years ago.
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Post by Apocrypha on Apr 7, 2020 12:59:03 GMT -5
I think I'm in the leaving eventually camp, with the stated goal of first getting my shit together, and launching our youngest (16) child. That said, what would it take for me to leave right now? 1. Confirmation of infidelity. Nothing recent, but there have been a couple of situations over the years where I do wonder. There is enough smoke that my gut tells me there must be fire, and on those 4am trips to the bathroom these thoughts often intrude. They were the catalyst that got me really thinking about the totality of our relationship, researching on the web and at some point discovering ILIASM. Any evidence of infidelity is long gone, so absent an admission I will likely never know the truth. If my suspicions were to be somehow confirmed, my "Eventually" timeline would transform to "Today". Sitting here, I don't know that I have a concrete #2, 3 or 4. Now that my eyes are open, I have noticed a trajectory that I think will cause me to say "enough" sooner than later. The SM was one thing, but the complete removal of affection, touching, etc. is another level. It took me a couple of months to notice, but once my eyes were open to that I started to see other things. The very latest is a propensity for my wife to "talk over" me or show signs of frustration if I have a differing opinion. It often seems to me she wants to talk "at me", and not really have a conversation at all. She has always been talkative in the extreme, but this sort of behavior is new. Mixed in with that is talk of plans for when we are empty-nesters, what we would do if one or both lost jobs in this downturn, etc. So confusing. Am I just picking up on this now that my radar is up, or am I experiencing a sort of confirmation bias? I don't know. Either way, I'm having a hard time keeping a lid on the resentment. What essential difference would it make if you did find out your missus' had cheated on you a couple of times some years ago Brother bozodeclowne ? It wouldn't change her current attitude or behaviour one iota. For that matter, what difference would it make if you found out conclusively that she had not cheated on you a couple of times some years ago ? That wouldn't change her current attitude or behaviour by an iota either. Truly Brother, your problem appears to be the current attitude and behaviour your missus exhibits in the here and now. Is what your missus did (or didn't do) some years ago, all that relevant to her attitude and behaviour here and now, today ? You are probably going to have to make your choice(s) on current facts, not on what might (or might not) have happened some years ago. Agree on the spotlight here, baza. It's an essential question, "What difference would it make?" I think there is an answer, though, which illuminates a fact about the frame in which people operate while in a dysfunctional deal. When my wife cheated on me, in the midst of our dysfunctional, celibate deal, throughout months of family counselling, it was absolutely devastating; however, factually, I did not have a sexual relationship with her. I had an expectation of one though. At some point along the way within a "everything's great, barring the sex" narrative, or even a "we're working on it" narrative, I think the assumption is that both parties are partners in upholding the "story" or "belief" that they are in a marriage. Anything that overtly jeopardizes that belief risks immediately invoking the set of consequences they hope to avoid - divorce and the kit that comes with it. "Working on it" - such as a state of perpetual negotiation, bickering, bids and rejections, therapy etc, still generally falls into the frame of "rocky marriage". On the other hand - "removing the wedding ring", "affair partner" "separate beds" (whether or not anything happens in those beds), and getting caught in an affair tends to MEAN something. It makes it more difficult to both pretend that they are moving toward a reconciliation. It risks consequences and a further shift of mind - like jumping on top of an avalanche build-up - that things will spin farther out of control, or that the will of either or both parties will be inclined toward connection. It's just nigh impossible to ignore the obvious in that case, whereas it is easier to ignore the obvious in the absence of the affair, because they are partners at least in misery - if not in marriage.
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Post by greatcoastal on Apr 7, 2020 14:26:02 GMT -5
Here's a perspective to go along with the others, concerning "what difference would it make?" What happened some years ago, does make a difference,when you discover that you where the victim of a manipulative controller, a narcissist who played " bait and switch" on you. (this can last for years, then once the procreation is over.... it's over!)
The past will now teach you that you can no longer TRUST this person, NOW and in the future. Time to make a choice.
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Post by bozodeclowne on Apr 8, 2020 15:54:11 GMT -5
What essential difference would it make if you did find out your missus' had cheated on you a couple of times some years ago Brother bozodeclowne ? It wouldn't change her current attitude or behaviour one iota. ... baza - you and itme are correct, of course. It wouldn't make a bit of difference either way. I do believe that knowledge would be the kick in the butt that would knock me off the fence, in the sense of the original question posed in this thread. Even so, I recognize it's a bit of a cop-out. Do I really need that confirmation in light of what I already know about the rest of the relationship? Not at all. Do I want it? Oh, yes! But why? It changes nothing about the "She's just not into you" nature of our relationship. It's an extension of the "why-chasing" I've been doing, and that in turn is probably just an excuse not to act. I like to think that I woke up 3 or 4 years ago, and finally started getting smarter about all of of this. It is probably more accurate to say that as the nest has emptied and we've gotten older I've had more time to consider the current state of affairs, the time I've got left, etc. Also that hope that things would magically improve as we found more time for "us" has faded. We've got the time, but only one is interested in the "us", apparently.
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Post by Handy on Apr 8, 2020 19:33:03 GMT -5
Apocrypha Baza RE W having an affair Agree on the spotlight here, baza. It's an essential question, "What difference would it make?
If a spouse has an affair, I think that lessens the guilt of divorce by the sex starved partner for considered divorce. I see lots of "guilty feelings for wanting sex" in ILIASM folks.
The partner with the affair shows they want sex (a close relationship with a partner) but shows they don't want it with you.
It is easier to step out of the moral mold if people around you are doing it.
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endthegame
Junior Member
Posts: 96
Age Range: 46-50
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Post by endthegame on Apr 12, 2020 11:22:13 GMT -5
From the point of view of a guy that left after 20 years of SM. The key turning point was I finally loved myself enough to leave. This is important. It trumped guilt, duty, history, societal morals, finances etc. Many of the 'reasons' to stay that I held onto for decades turned out to be lies I told myself. I realised I was worth more than this. So from a more enlightened viewpoint, I worked on my own shit and became a stronger more rounded person. This was hard work.
This was then backed up with the final realisation, or maybe absolute acceptance, that there were several attributes that my X would never change, namely, she would literally never be an intimate person (Think Sheldon out of big bang and his long suffering girlfriend Amy). Literally, she would never change. She had a list of personal psychological issues she was unwilling to confront that impacted all members of my families life, close family and extended. This went WAY further than intimacy, it seeped into all aspects of life in a damaging way.
Ultimately, she was never, ever going to change, unwilling to try to change and would never change while I enabled her.
Anyway, now I'm out, is the grass greener over here?
Yes
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Post by baza on Apr 12, 2020 22:50:35 GMT -5
Brother bozodeclowne refers to a "cop-out" above. And I think it is true based on what I've seen (and done myself too) in this group. In my deal I could readily say - "If I caught my missus rooting the postman, then I'd be outta there". You see, the chances that she was rooting the postman were 1,000 to 1 .... and the chances of me discovering it (if it had been going on) closer to 2,000 to 1. So I could put forward a pretence to myself that I would be prepared to walk if the circumstances warranted it - and then concocted a circumstance on it about my missus and the postman .... a circumstance extremely unlikely to happen. In my case, it was a cop-out. Deep down I knew I wasn't leaving, but I bullshitted myself that I was "if" the criteria of my missus / postman were met. And, I'd imagine, "if" the scenario of my missus and the postman had become a fact, I reckon I would have shifted the circumstance to - "If I caught my missus rooting the postman AGAIN, then I'd be outta there".
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Post by ironhamster on Apr 13, 2020 2:55:28 GMT -5
I think I'm in the leaving eventually camp, with the stated goal of first getting my shit together, and launching our youngest (16) child. That said, what would it take for me to leave right now? 1. Confirmation of infidelity. ... Infidelity comes in two forms. The traditional marriage vows have "to have and to hold," sexual intimacy, before "forsaking all others," monogamy. You cannot have monogamy without sexual intimacy. A spouse that continually refuses sexual intimacy is cheating on the marriage just as surely as if they were fucking that mail carrier every day.
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Post by lessingham on Apr 13, 2020 3:55:05 GMT -5
The problem is that the cheated on partner occupies the high moral ground and the cheater is scum. The sexually denied recieves much less sympathy and shame stops them shouting their betrayal from the rooftops.
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Post by mirrororchid on Apr 13, 2020 5:54:16 GMT -5
The problem is that the cheated on partner occupies the high moral ground and the cheater is scum. The sexually denied receives much less sympathy and shame stops them shouting their betrayal from the rooftops. While arguably true, a great many people find the deception involved in much "cheating" is fairly unanimously condemned. What happens if a calm decision is made to seek intimacy due to its absence within the marriage and the refused informed their spouse of such? The refused can still claim "cheating" but there is a risk of shame for the refuser if anyone dare asks "How did you catch her/him?" The reply should be popcorn-worthy. "Um...he, uh...told me?" "Felt guilty huh?" <squirms> "Um, not exactly." That will not be a fun coffee with her bestie. (or beer with his bestie) "Wait,.... it's been HOW LONG? " <sips beer/coffee> "Shiiiiiiiiiiiit."
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 13, 2020 10:21:07 GMT -5
Lessingham: “ The problem is that the cheated on partner occupies the high moral ground and the cheater is scum. The sexually denied recieves much less sympathy and shame stops them shouting their betrayal from the rooftops.”
I know people who cheated , including my ex, who maintained friendships and respect after. Heck, I still have a cordial relationship with my refuser ex who cheated.
If one doesn’t want to leave one’s refuser, any excuse to stay will do. That includes taking no action.
Have you considered simply admitting to yourself that the marriage you have is what you want and chose? There must be something you find rewarding about having a wife who sexually refused you and also indicates in a variety of ways that she doesn’t care about you.
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Post by baza on Apr 13, 2020 18:42:21 GMT -5
The "moral high ground" is an illusion. It exists only in our respective heads. The post by Brother mirrororchid (2 posts back) shows that in action. Who has (or had) the moral high ground is not particularly relevant or useful as far as bringing an ILIASM deal to resolution. Cheating is a perfectly legitimate choice. Opening up the marriage is just as valid a choice. So is leaving the marriage. So is staying in it. It is NOT a matter of morals. It is a matter of choice. And you can't "opt out" of that process. If you can't or won't choose, then others will make your choice for you. And you can bet your arse that others will make the choice based on THEIR best interests, not yours. You can see this in action in the posts of Brother lessingham
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Post by saarinista on Apr 13, 2020 21:18:02 GMT -5
The problem is that the cheated on partner occupies the high moral ground and the cheater is scum. The sexually denied recieves much less sympathy and shame stops them shouting their betrayal from the rooftops. Not everyone shares that view. The only view that matters is what YOU believe, anyway.
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Post by saarinista on Apr 13, 2020 21:21:11 GMT -5
Lessingham: “ The problem is that the cheated on partner occupies the high moral ground and the cheater is scum. The sexually denied recieves much less sympathy and shame stops them shouting their betrayal from the rooftops.” I know people who cheated , including my ex, who maintained friendships and respect after. Heck, I still have a cordial relationship with my refuser ex who cheated. If one doesn’t want to leave one’s refuser, any excuse to stay will do. That includes taking no action. Have you considered simply admitting to yourself that the marriage you have is what you want and chose? There must be something you find rewarding about having a wife who sexually refused you and also indicates in a variety of ways that she doesn’t care about you. This. Lessingham, what's the payoff for you in being miserable? There has to be a psychological payoff you're getting for you to stay in misery. My payoff is I haven't yet destroyed my husband's fantasy, something I don't want to do, though destroy it I must to be happy, I believe. I'm gathering strength. Whats your payoff for staying?
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