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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 8, 2020 11:39:52 GMT -5
Fair enough worksforme2 . Let's not even think of using our 2nd amendment to escape voting. Actually, that would more likely lead to an erosion of second amendment rights, wouldn't it? Most people who want honed down gun laws don't need to be forced to go to the polls at rifle point to do something odious like... voting.
I often wonder if half of the US citizens even know what the second amendment means, historically.
In a feudal society only the nobles were allowed to own and bear arms (and, of course, their bully boys).
In many countries there was a death penalty waiting for any ordinary citizen who was found owning weapons. (because they just MIGHT be planning on assassinating a noble, right?)
So the second amendment, in it's original intent, was declaring "We are all equal, EVERYBODY should have the right, not just the nobility .... and forget about hanging them for it". I very much doubt that the original
intention was "every dickhead under the sun should have the right to tote assault rifles around". But hey,
your choice. I don't have a dog in that race.
(We are pretty heavily armed here in NZ, but we have almost no self inflicted shootings, and very few third party ones. Occasional gang-bangers. Nobody obsesses about their substitute dick - rifles are for
hunting or shooting varmint, not to fight the government that we ourselves elected. What an absurd notion.)
Well petrushka you are partly right on this. I would agree a substantial portion of the US and the world is clueless as to what the 2nd amendment says and why the framers of the constitution included it in the Bill of Rights...."A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". That's it, all of it. Consider the time and events in how the 2nd amendment came about as part of the Bill of Rights. The colonies had just achieved independence from Great Britain. Remembering the occupation by British troops and what it included, like the colonists being forced to house and feed the "red coats" in their homes, onerous taxes, limitations on what could be said about the crown(think sedition), and laws enforced by the crown as to what the colonists could trade and who they could trade with. The country being cash poor, the ability to support an army was limited. Most of those who fought for independence had returned to their homes and farms. To insure a ready supply of armed men, and since many states already had militias it was a natural response to the situation the framers faced. And they were correct to take this approach as the US would fight the British again a couple decades or so later. There were no assault rifles and the concept of semi or fully automatic weapons was probably right up there with filling a large metal cylinder with people and flying it across an ocean. Just not something they would conceive. I am surprised at the statement that citizens there are prettily heavily armed. I was under the impression that most people had turned in their arms following the incident at Crist Church. But the press here only reports and pushes the agenda it prefers, like gun control. So they mostly reported New Zealanders as having fully disarmed themselves voluntarily. Maybe another lie by our "woke" press. |
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Post by petrushka on Nov 8, 2020 14:40:39 GMT -5
worksforme2 Nope. People turned in their assault weapon style guns; military looking and centre fire semi automatics. They did. But we could keep semi automatic rimfire up to 10 shots and any and all bolt action as well as shotguns up to a 5 capacity magazine.
Also, unless you are in a pistol club and have a special license, nobody is allowed handguns here. Very illegal, for any given value of illegal. Just as well, because it makes it harder for criminals and idiots to acquire such. I still remember laughing my arse off when I first arrived in this country and read about a bank robber rocking up wielding a hammer. But yeah, that was the reality of that and to this day there are very few armed robberies with guns involved. Although, American TV is making an impact (particularly on the cops, who want more and bigger guns). No 15 year old moron is going to pull dad's Glock out of the nightstand and massacre their teacher and classmates.
Don't think much of that agenda of yours, mate ...what you call an agenda: don't tell me they're trying to take a sensible course? God forbid.
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Post by isthisit on Nov 8, 2020 14:50:37 GMT -5
I often wonder if half of the US citizens even know what the second amendment means, historically.
In a feudal society only the nobles were allowed to own and bear arms (and, of course, their bully boys).
In many countries there was a death penalty waiting for any ordinary citizen who was found owning weapons. (because they just MIGHT be planning on assassinating a noble, right?)
So the second amendment, in it's original intent, was declaring "We are all equal, EVERYBODY should have the right, not just the nobility .... and forget about hanging them for it". I very much doubt that the original
intention was "every dickhead under the sun should have the right to tote assault rifles around". But hey,
your choice. I don't have a dog in that race.
(We are pretty heavily armed here in NZ, but we have almost no self inflicted shootings, and very few third party ones. Occasional gang-bangers. Nobody obsesses about their substitute dick - rifles are for
hunting or shooting varmint, not to fight the government that we ourselves elected. What an absurd notion.)
Well petrushka you are partly right on this. I would agree a substantial portion of the US and the world is clueless as to what the 2nd amendment says and why the framers of the constitution included it in the Bill of Rights...."A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". That's it, all of it. Consider the time and events in how the 2nd amendment came about as part of the Bill of Rights. The colonies had just achieved independence from Great Britain. Remembering the occupation by British troops and what it included, like the colonists being forced to house and feed the "red coats" in their homes, onerous taxes, limitations on what could be said about the crown(think sedition), and laws enforced by the crown as to what the colonists could trade and who they could trade with. The country being cash poor, the ability to support an army was limited. Most of those who fought for independence had returned to their homes and farms. To insure a ready supply of armed men, and since many states already had militias it was a natural response to the situation the framers faced. And they were correct to take this approach as the US would fight the British again a couple decades or so later. There were no assault rifles and the concept of semi or fully automatic weapons was probably right up there with filling a large metal cylinder with people and flying it across an ocean. Just not something they would conceive. I am surprised at the statement that citizens there are prettily heavily armed. I was under the impression that most people had turned in their arms following the incident at Crist Church. But the press here only reports and pushes the agenda it prefers, like gun control. So they mostly reported New Zealanders as having fully disarmed themselves voluntarily. Maybe another lie by our "woke" press. I feel like I should apologise for all that turning up and taking over business. Deplorable. On the other hand it does not satisfactorily explain the need for people to go to the supermarket armed to the teeth in 2020. |
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Post by saarinista on Nov 8, 2020 15:12:05 GMT -5
I often wonder if half of the US citizens even know what the second amendment means, historically.
In a feudal society only the nobles were allowed to own and bear arms (and, of course, their bully boys).
In many countries there was a death penalty waiting for any ordinary citizen who was found owning weapons. (because they just MIGHT be planning on assassinating a noble, right?)
So the second amendment, in it's original intent, was declaring "We are all equal, EVERYBODY should have the right, not just the nobility .... and forget about hanging them for it". I very much doubt that the original
intention was "every dickhead under the sun should have the right to tote assault rifles around". But hey,
your choice. I don't have a dog in that race.
(We are pretty heavily armed here in NZ, but we have almost no self inflicted shootings, and very few third party ones. Occasional gang-bangers. Nobody obsesses about their substitute dick - rifles are for
hunting or shooting varmint, not to fight the government that we ourselves elected. What an absurd notion.)
Well petrushka you are partly right on this. I would agree a substantial portion of the US and the world is clueless as to what the 2nd amendment says and why the framers of the constitution included it in the Bill of Rights...."A well regulated militia, being necessary for the security of a free state, the rights of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed". That's it, all of it. Consider the time and events in how the 2nd amendment came about as part of the Bill of Rights. The colonies had just achieved independence from Great Britain. Remembering the occupation by British troops and what it included, like the colonists being forced to house and feed the "red coats" in their homes, onerous taxes, limitations on what could be said about the crown(think sedition), and laws enforced by the crown as to what the colonists could trade and who they could trade with. The country being cash poor, the ability to support an army was limited. Most of those who fought for independence had returned to their homes and farms. To insure a ready supply of armed men, and since many states already had militias it was a natural response to the situation the framers faced. And they were correct to take this approach as the US would fight the British again a couple decades or so later. There were no assault rifles and the concept of semi or fully automatic weapons was probably right up there with filling a large metal cylinder with people and flying it across an ocean. Just not something they would conceive. I am surprised at the statement that citizens there are prettily heavily armed. I was under the impression that most people had turned in their arms following the incident at Crist Church. But the press here only reports and pushes the agenda it prefers, like gun control. So they mostly reported New Zealanders as having fully disarmed themselves voluntarily. Maybe another lie by our "woke" press. There is plenty of right wing media as well as regular media, worksforme2. The USA is chock full of guns and people who don't hesitate to use them. This would tend to negate your implication that the "left wing media" has been so successful at taking away anyone's precious guns. What do gun enthusiasts want, anyway? Should CNN and Fox just give free add space to all the gun manufacturers? Would that be acceptable to you and other gun-rights advocates? 😉 Again, I just don't understand what people of the gun loving mindset want. An assault rifle in every pot? A handgun for every newborn? What? Where does this end? |
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 8, 2020 17:20:30 GMT -5
There is plenty of right wing media as well as regular media, worksforme2 . The USA is chock full of guns and people who don't hesitate to use them. This would tend to negate your implication that the "left wing media" has been so successful at taking away anyone's precious guns. What do gun enthusiasts want, anyway? Should CNN and Fox just give free add space to all the gun manufacturers? Would that be acceptable to you and other gun-rights advocates? 😉 Again, I just don't understand what people of the gun loving mindset want. An assault rifle in every pot? A handgun for every newborn? What? Where does this end? Yes there are media outlets that cater to more conservative viewpoints. I never said there weren't. What I said was the "woke" media (translation-liberal) MSM has an agenda that includes gun control. Of coarse the control excludes their armed bodyguards. And that same media is perfectly willing to slant their reporting or editorial views so as so put the worst spin on those of us who own firearms. What do gun owners want? We want to be allowed to exercise our 2nd amendment rights. We want to be able to protect ourselves and our loved ones from those who would visit harm upon us. We aren't asking for anything that isn't promised to us as part our fundamental rights as American citizens. Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Perhaps you find that concept unacceptable. No individual or group I am familiar with is lobbying for mandatory gun ownership. If you hate firearms then don't buy one. That's called freedom of choice, something a firearms owner would insist upon for you, as your right. The same freedom to choose should exist for a gun affection ado. Don't restrict my right to exercise the privilege of being able to choose. I don't coerce you and you don't coerce me. Pretty simple isn't it? |
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 8, 2020 17:39:54 GMT -5
I feel like I should apologise for all that turning up and taking over business. Deplorable. On the other hand it does not satisfactorily explain the need for people to go to the supermarket armed to the teeth in 2020. I am not at all sure what you are saying initially... But I would agree that a trip to the grocery store should not warrant packing a sidearm. My state (NC) is an open carry state, which means any one who can legally own the firearm can strap on a pistol and walk around with it. I think the mentality behind open carry is if someone is considering doing a crime the presence of an armed citizen potentially putting a round or two into them may well act as a deterrent. |
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Post by isthisit on Nov 8, 2020 17:53:26 GMT -5
I feel like I should apologise for all that turning up and taking over business. Deplorable. On the other hand it does not satisfactorily explain the need for people to go to the supermarket armed to the teeth in 2020. I am not at all sure where you are saying initially... But I would agree that a trip to the grocery store should not merit packing a sidearm. My state (NC) is an open carry state, which means any one who can legally own the firearm can strap on a pistol and walk around with it. I think the mentality behind open carry is if someone is considering doing a crime the presence of an armed citizen potentially putting a round or two into them may well act as a deterrent. 😊 I guess my point was that my nation’s history of colonialism is an embarrassment to me, but many others would disagree. I celebrate the fact that in the U.K. we can freely express a range of views on the iffy bits of our history. This is not the place to debate the gun thing. Like most Europeans the whole business makes no sense to me at all. But, I respect that other nations have different cultures and views on this topic. I was brought up to accept and respect the opinions of others without judgement. Except for refusers and bait & switch brides/bridegrooms. I’ve plenty to say about those.... which is why I am here. |
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Post by petrushka on Nov 8, 2020 18:51:12 GMT -5
worksforme2 - you have no idea mate. You don't even HAVE left leaning media in the US. Your most liberal liberals are still to the right of what would be considered the centre in much of the rest of the Free World. Dig that. Well, maybe Bernie. You guys talk about socialist healthcare and what not, when you mean public health care. Let me tell you what socialist means: it means there's a bunch of tyrant bureaucrats who very literally take away your property, take away your tools, your business, take away your freedom of speech and expression and force you to labour in a state owned factory or farm or old folks home even. They may leave your house and your last shirt. It means you're under constant surveillance to make sure you don't publicly have the wrong thoughts. THAT is fucking socialism. If you want to buy a banana or an orange you may get lucky once or twice a year. If you want a car for your kids you have to put the application in as soon as they get home from the obstetric ward. Not kidding here. You want a bag of cement or another water tap you have to steal if from a state owned building site or do a favour for a guy who works there and can steal it for you. My wife grew up under it. I lived next to it. My auntie was part of it (and could not wait to get the fuck out of that country despite her privilege). NO freedom of expression. My wife had friends blackmailed by the secret police to report on her, because she would not join The Party or their union. It's so deeply ingrained, she still flinches when I frown. Don't have an opinion, don't show how you feel. Socialism ...
What do you know about socialism? Not very much. A community pitching in money via taxes to build a hospital and then employ a doctor is good sense; it's community spirit - socialism it isn't. Socialism would force you to build it, and because nobody really likes being forced they'd do a shit job and the hospital would be a dump with holes in the floor because there was cement missing and not enough water taps because they were also missing and most of the doctors wouldn't be very enthusiastic about working there either. They would not have antibiotics, no local anesthetics and not enough bandages. If you don't believe me, do a tour of Romania and Hungary. {sigh} I'll shut up now and I'll try to contain myself and stay off the topic. As you can probably tell, I have strong feelings about it because I have experienced it.
disclosure: I am a dyed in the wool anarchist. that doesn't mean I blow people up - it means I don't trust anybody with power, because power corrupts. And anybody who seeks power is inherently not suited to have it, should be kept as far away from it as possible. People who don't want it should get the job. People who are desperate for power (long list) should be locked up in a safe place somewhere far, far away. I.M.O. Oh, and someone lose the key somewhere, pretty please? Anybody who supports tyrants is no friend of mine.
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 8, 2020 19:01:31 GMT -5
worksforme2 Nope. People turned in their assault weapon style guns; military looking and centre fire semi automatics. They did. But we could keep semi automatic rimfire up to 10 shots and any and all bolt action as well as shotguns up to a 5 capacity magazine.
Also, unless you are in a pistol club and have a special license, nobody is allowed handguns here. Very illegal, for any given value of illegal. Just as well, because it makes it harder for criminals and idiots to acquire such. I still remember laughing my arse off when I first arrived in this country and read about a bank robber rocking up wielding a hammer. But yeah, that was the reality of that and to this day there are very few armed robberies with guns involved. Although, American TV is making an impact (particularly on the cops, who want more and bigger guns). No 15 year old moron is going to pull dad's Glock out of the nightstand and massacre their teacher and classmates.
Don't think much of that agenda of yours, mate ...what you call an agenda: don't tell me they're trying to take a sensible course? God forbid.
The sensible course would be to gather gun rights advocates together to hammer out a Constitutional amendment spelling out permitted gun controls. Such an amendment needs 2/3 of the states, so you'd want the amendment forged by the ones that revere the 2nd amendment most. Mississippi, Utah, Alabama, Idaho, Louisiana, Texas, Arkansas, West Virginia, Kentucky, South Carolina, among others. Whatever those states agreed on should have no trouble passing. The guns aren't for overthrowing elected governments, it's to overthrow those imposed by NON-democratic means, think military coup. A modest proposal might be: 18 years olds can buy a manual load 6 shot revolver. If they don't threaten anyone with it for ten years, nor lose control of it (stolen, lost, misused by someone else, sell it to an unauthorized person [criminal record/inadequate wait time (the ten year probation with less powerful weapon)], etc), they can get a 10 bullet magazine pistol. Didn't threaten anyone with or lose control of it for ten years? You're eligible for a 20 round clip. Good for another ten? Assault rifles are allowed. If you have owned firearms for forty years and no one has complained? You're eligible for a machine gun at age 58. That last one is the incentive for red states to keep 18 year old hotheads in check. Frankly, the machine gun ban is unconstitutional. An amendment making such a ban legal would strengthen the 2nd amendment May introduce anonymized blockchain registration the manufacturer can track if a warrant is issued for a gun used in a crime. Just to float some ideas that may be able to garner support. On another note, maybe we need more words. What you say Socialism is, I tend to refer to as communism, like North Korea or China. (I enjoy ADVchina channel on Youtube. The hosts describe China much the way you do) Socialism is decried as a horrible thing practiced by most countries in Europe. You know, those hellholes that rich Americans can't wait to visit because...um... it's fun to be in socialist hellholes to... um, appreciate what they have back home, I guess? I really want to ask some conservatives, where are all the capitalist allies we should have? Why do we keep going to war with countries that have single payer health care? Why can't we find our laissez faire brethren? A hard look in the American mirror would point out Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, food stamps, section 8 housing, and subsidization of utilities, food, and fuel would taint my country with a healthy dose of socialism too. We don't admit it, and every so often a conservative suggests getting rid of, or at least reducing these outlays and the consequences tend to be unhealthy to their career. Americans LIKE socialism. They just don't know that it's what they have. (not the communist socialism you speak of; European style democratic socialism). I suspect the Great Depression was a natural consequence of capitalism and FDR's public welfare efforts were the revolution Marx predicted. It just wasn't as drastic as Marx thought it would be. No uprising was needed. FDR installed a pressure valve in our economy that short-circuited the fury of the proletariat. |
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Post by mirrororchid on Nov 8, 2020 19:34:29 GMT -5
It's not THAT hard to vote in the US, either, though of course it could/should be easier. Depends on your polling place. Mine is super quick. I see plenty of stories about places where people wait in line for hours on end. There's some suspicion that those polling places are meant to be busy enough that people give up and don't vote. Frankly, there ought to be a legal challenge to require machines be taken from polls like mine until the wait times balance out. |
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Post by saarinista on Nov 8, 2020 20:02:09 GMT -5
It's not THAT hard to vote in the US, either, though of course it could/should be easier. Depends on your polling place. There ought to be a legal challenge to require machines be taken from polls like mine until the wait times balance out. Moving the machines around sounds like a bigger hassle than moving voters with rides to the polls or sending absentee ballots, but I agree we need to make voting easier. I'm just saying that we all need to vote even when it's inconvenient-or face the consequences. |
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Post by petrushka on Nov 8, 2020 20:40:31 GMT -5
mirrororchid I know what you are saying, w.r.t. communism. Yes those states, as the former USSR, Poland, Hungary, Czechoslovakia (as they were then), China, Vietnam, N.Korea are/were referred to as communist. Note my choice of words: "referred to". Karl Marx & Fritz Engels came up with the theory/model of communism. Lenin and the Bolsheviks came up with the theory/model of socialism. Communism describes a utopian model of society where everybody gives (works) according to their abilities, and everybody receives according to their needs (note, they said 'needs', not 'wants'). So, a Mercedes for everyone. A house for everybody. A job for everybody. If you think about it in terms of human nature, you'd think "not very likely to work, is it"? Hence Lenin came along and said "Won't work. The peasants are too stupid, too selfish, you have to force the buggers". Eventually, they thought, they'd educate everyone to their way of thinking and they'd see the light and do it voluntarily and you'd *achieve* communism. Communism is Utopia. Socialism is what you actually got from Shanghai to East Berlin, vial Hanoi and Moscow. Trust me, I spent 5 1/2 years at university being educated about this (also, mostly, arguing with various stripes of communists, maoists, socialists, trotskyists et cetera -- or maybe I should say listen to them arguing amongst themselves). At the time it was pertinent, so we studied it, high school and university. Marx, Engels, Mao, Lenin; I have a pretty good grasp of the theory. Which as it turned out, usually diverged severely from the practice on the ground. These days it's hardly relevant, there's no point to slogging through the tomes of ideology unless you're a historian. Most of those countries have turned into absolutist tyrannies under the control of one man, or a small group. None of them are the slightest bit interested in the well-being of their citizenry. Just "keeping the peasants down".
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Post by worksforme2 on Nov 8, 2020 21:04:58 GMT -5
worksforme2 Nope. People turned in their assault weapon style guns; military looking and centre fire semi automatics. They did. But we could keep semi automatic rimfire up to 10 shots and any and all bolt action as well as shotguns up to a 5 capacity magazine.
Also, unless you are in a pistol club and have a special license, nobody is allowed handguns here. Very illegal, for any given value of illegal. Just as well, because it makes it harder for criminals and idiots to acquire such. I still remember laughing my arse off when I first arrived in this country and read about a bank robber rocking up wielding a hammer. But yeah, that was the reality of that and to this day there are very few armed robberies with guns involved. Although, American TV is making an impact (particularly on the cops, who want more and bigger guns). No 15 year old moron is going to pull dad's Glock out of the nightstand and massacre their teacher and classmates.
Don't think much of that agenda of yours, mate ...what you call an agenda: don't tell me they're trying to take a sensible course? God forbid.
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Let me say right off my opinion of the folks in New Zealand just went up. Honestly the media I heard and read here never mentioned anything other than the mass turning over of firearms. It read and sounded like virtually everything except the smallest of calibers and maybe a double barrel shot gun must be given up.
I hate the thought of mass killings as much as you, irrespective of the age of the person doing the killing. But in countries that have stricter gun laws those who wish to kill a lot of people just use something else, like a truck. You are just as dead if mowed down by a truck as an AK47. There's no really good answer for stopping a mass murder that I can see.
And to be honest, I don't really have an agenda, other than to rebel against those who would deny me the opportunity to pursue the most basic of human rights. That being the right to live my life to the fullest, partake in as many and as much of the liberty my country affords me and to seek happiness whenever and where ever I can find it.
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Post by Handy on Nov 8, 2020 22:54:58 GMT -5
Mirrororchid
If you have owned firearms for forty years and no one has complained? You're eligible for a machine gun at age 58. WOW,LOL, I almost sprayed my computer screen with a Coke I was drinking. Maybe it was meant to be serious but I found it the most honourous thing I read all day.
Petrushka
A community pitching in money via taxes to build a hospital and then employ a doctor is good sense; it's community spirit...
Several local hospitals started as an off shoot of religious organization community service needs and projects over 75 years ago. The hospitals still have fund raising events and entertainment projects. Donate enough money and you get a brick with your name places somewhere on a wall or the floor.
Petrushka, thanks for sharing your first hand experiences. They show how some people that are not so lucky survive. We really have it easy compared to what some people had to go through.
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Post by lessingham on Nov 9, 2020 6:24:03 GMT -5
I have given up on America and the gun laws. There is no debate, just people talking at each other. Personally, I am not bothered or feel unsafe living in a country with no guns. Would I feel the same living in Wyoming, surrounded by bears and wolves and with the respondant to a 911 being over 20 miles away? Possibly not.
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