|
Post by h on Nov 21, 2022 7:56:11 GMT -5
Navigating this is a minefield. More art than science. But when communicating with my wife about the intimacy gap, the "expert" blogger carries infinitely more cred than I do. We'll see if it makes any difference long-term. I'm not holding my breath. In an odd place where I haven't given up all hope of having a deep mutually satisfying sex life with her, therefore the turmoil. She is starting to talk to me about this. That's good! Do I trust her? Not really.... She read other articles on her own? Yeah, that's investment. PsychMom is a gold mine. I like your cautious approach though. Pessimists are only pleasantly surprised. Some sex articles/podcasts speak of the "30 day challenge" Have sex with your spouse every day for a month. When sex is plentiful (excessive?) it changes the dynamic entirely in ways many participants find shocking. Some of the consequences, no doubt, are listed in this article. More, like wives' discovery of " responsive arousal", are mentioned in Dr. PsychMom's other articles. Quite an education is available, if she wants it. The downfall of those 30 day challenges is that your refuser has to be willing to take the first step and agree. You can't even get to a point of seeing IF it would work unless the refuser commits to it 100% before it starts.
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 21, 2022 13:46:04 GMT -5
The update is she seemed sincere in talking about it. When I asked about anything specific that stuck with her about the articles, she mentioned the author's reporting that declining libido is often associated to a monogamous relationship. That's definitely NOT the takeaway I was hoping for! As if it justified her behavior.
In a weak moment I took the reset, and it was...enthusiastic! (Been four months). Immediately after I spilled my guts that I can't do this frequency, and I/we deserve better. Dick move?
Like a battlefield general, I felt the need to press my advantage, and have texted her some extremely dirty messages, way beyond anything I've ever done before, and she reacted that I'm distracting her at a meeting, in a flirty way. To be continued.
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Nov 21, 2022 19:57:10 GMT -5
The update is she seemed sincere in talking about it. When I asked about anything specific that stuck with her about the articles, she mentioned the author's reporting that declining libido is often associated to a monogamous relationship. That's definitely NOT the takeaway I was hoping for! As if it justified her behavior. So.....she found one little nugget.....01% of the article to justify her behavior and make you question yours? Meanwhile ignoring the other 99% That's Denial. Avoidance. Reversal Now it's your fault for not understanding that she now has a scapegoat " a declining libido (which was most likely never high or average to begin with" and how dare you think of yourself! Now she is the victim and you are the offender! shrink4men.com/2019/11/27/darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender-video/
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Nov 21, 2022 21:02:48 GMT -5
blunder8: From what you have posted, your wife seems happy with the current situation. She probably also thinks she has nothing to lose if it continues. Given these probable truths, what's your next move?
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 22, 2022 12:17:48 GMT -5
blunder8: From what you have posted, your wife seems happy with the current situation. She probably also thinks she has nothing to lose if it continues. Given these probable truths, what's your next move? My next move is to continue to play the long game. I have no other choice. We are talking, so that's good. We've had some real hard conversations lately. I told her I am prepared to live as roommates, with no expectation other than sharing household duties. She doesn't like it. It's bothering her. I was born male, so I have a savage unemotional, IDGAF mode I can switch into if needed. When we started digging into "what's wrong" I spilled it out as plainly as possible. Of course she got a little defensive: "so this is all my fault?" YES! I am not refusing her and then refusing to talk about it. I am the one that feels like a shell of a man, disrespected, unloved, pathetic for wanting someone that doesn't want me. So, there is some progress I suppose. There was a reset last week, which I took, and it was good. I'm not putting huge hope that everything is fixed, but I have to at least give a little credit that she has come to the bargaining table and has admitted her failing. Does she mean it? Time will tell. If it reverts back to the same empty situation then I will use the advice I received here: "I intend to have an intimate, sexual relationship. I hope it's with you." It's the next logical move.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Nov 22, 2022 13:19:19 GMT -5
blunder8: If it's a libido problem, she could talk to her doctor. Some medicines decrease libido. There also are hormones that can increase libido.Of course, if she's depressed, that also can decrease libido.
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 22, 2022 13:41:28 GMT -5
blunder8: If it's a libido problem, she could talk to her doctor. Some medicines decrease libido. There also are hormones that can increase libido.Of course, if she's depressed, that also can decrease libido. Yep, it's a weird cocktail of reasons. She's got thyroid problems and low self esteem. I've begged her to see her doctor. She's somewhat distrustful of doctors after her family physician misdiagnosed her thyroid problem for years. It's now being treated by a specialist. I've told her that she should be seen by a doctor first for her health, and secondly for our marriage. I realize some of this is medical and try to be patient with her. The excuses don't always reflect purely medical/health reasons: too early, too late, too busy, thinking about other things, I'll be late, just not in the mood. Still lots of untangling for me to do. We are talking....in a way that we haven't before. This time I'm not going to let it slip back into the old routine, which is to say no sex life. It either changes or it escalates to "if you don't want to love me somebody else will." (courtesy of The Allman Brothers)
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Nov 22, 2022 13:56:19 GMT -5
blunder8: I have hypothyroidism. As is the case with most with this disease, my doctors missed it for years. I finally was diagnosed after I went to a new doctor and complained of sleeping 18 hours a day (and a consequent loss of libido). She looked at my labs and immediately diagnosed me. Once I got on the right dose of medication, my libido increased.
The thyroid problem led to hair loss. The oral meds I was taking for it -- minoxidol (orally is used in Mexico off-label for hair loss) reduced my libido. When I finally got my hair back and went on a lower dose of minoxidol, my libido increased.
I didn't feel like myself without a libido, so I sought help. I like to enjoy sex, not do it just to please my partner. But because I love my partner I continued to have sex even when I was low libido and not that interested.
Bottom line is that you are right -- your wife needs to get medical attention for herself as well as the marriage. Having an ultimatum may cause her to overcome her reluctance to get help, and both of you may benefit.
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 22, 2022 14:08:01 GMT -5
Thanks northstarmom. Appreciate hearing this from a female perspective, even if it is different than my wife's perspective. I will talk about her need for more attention from a doctor and that she owes it to herself and to us. She also has had the hair loss, which has further fueled her self esteem issues, despite my reassuring her that I haven't lost my desire for her. Thanks for your insightful and timely comments.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Nov 22, 2022 14:17:44 GMT -5
blunder8: From what you have posted, your wife seems happy with the current situation. She probably also thinks she has nothing to lose if it continues. Given these probable truths, what's your next move? My next move is to continue to play the long game. I have no other choice. We are talking, so that's good. We've had some real hard conversations lately. I told her I am prepared to live as roommates, with no expectation other than sharing household duties. She doesn't like it. It's bothering her. I was born male, so I have a savage unemotional, IDGAF mode I can switch into if needed. When we started digging into "what's wrong" I spilled it out as plainly as possible. Of course she got a little defensive: "so this is all my fault?" YES! I am not refusing her and then refusing to talk about it. I am the one that feels like a shell of a man, disrespected, unloved, pathetic for wanting someone that doesn't want me. So, there is some progress I suppose. There was a reset last week, which I took, and it was good. I'm not putting huge hope that everything is fixed, but I have to at least give a little credit that she has come to the bargaining table and has admitted her failing. Does she mean it? Time will tell. If it reverts back to the same empty situation then I will use the advice I received here: "I intend to have an intimate, sexual relationship. I hope it's with you." It's the next logical move. Was the reset good? It's only one week later, even assuming it resulted in present, invested, sexual intimacy. "Sex as a single event" - followed by "Is that fine now? Is that what you wanted?" tends to be the norm in these situations. Also, an ever shuffling top 3 reasons we aren't having sex, whichever happens to be top of mind or part of life's banality or annoyances, also tends to happen. Just because there are problems in one's life (who doesn't have problems, including YOU!), doesn't mean those problems result in you not wanting to have sex. Many people, likely yourself, seek out sexual intimacy as one of the things that makes life worth living, despite those problems. You are in the same relationship, likely have many of the same problems, and you want sex. An important thing to note. You DO have another choice. So does she. In general, what I've found to be true in my own situation and countless others is that running out the clock favours the intimacy averse. Consider that the default state is for you NOT to be having sex except when you are. If there's no downside or consequence attached to the delay, or if the consequence of not having sex (a one time disagreement that is ended by having sex once, resetting the clock until the next disagreement) is less difficult than having the sex that you are trying to avoid, then it's likely you'll continue to not have sex. At that point, it's helpful to shift the frame so that you both realize the absence of action on this front is a very real commitment to celibacy, about on par with a priest or nun entering the clergy. It's not monogamy that's the commitment (a monogamous relationship is a sexual one) but rather a life of celibacy. If that's your intention, it's helpful to both name it and examine it from that perspective. That's usually an uncomfortable one for anyone who is intimacy averse with a spouse to own. The only time I've ever really seen any traction happen is when time consequence is shifted so the intimacy averse person must actively avoid an imminent, real deadline, with real consequences and a choice of how they want to participate in that. "I intend to have an intimate, sexual relationship. I hope it's with you." - as you have put it, tends to put a focus on it that is hard to convey as a hypothetical.
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 22, 2022 15:46:56 GMT -5
"In general, what I've found to be true in my own situation and countless others is that running out the clock favours the intimacy averse. Consider that the default state is for you NOT to be having sex except when you are."
I am determined that there will be no quietly running out the clock. I have found my resolve, my self-respect, my balls.
We've been talking. Maybe there is some hope? Maybe it's fool's gold. I won't be a nag. But I will be reminding her of our conversations of how important this is. I have the IDGAF emotionless roommate mode (effective in getting a conversation, with a threat of going permanent) and the ultimate trump card....if you're not having sex with me, someone else will be. I will no longer be a hapless, pathetic victim.
One thing is certain: the status quo just took a haymaker. No more.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Nov 24, 2022 14:12:58 GMT -5
"In general, what I've found to be true in my own situation and countless others is that running out the clock favours the intimacy averse. Consider that the default state is for you NOT to be having sex except when you are." I am determined that there will be no quietly running out the clock. I have found my resolve, my self-respect, my balls. We've been talking. Maybe there is some hope? Maybe it's fool's gold. I won't be a nag. But I will be reminding her of our conversations of how important this is. I have the IDGAF emotionless roommate mode (effective in getting a conversation, with a threat of going permanent) and the ultimate trump card....if you're not having sex with me, someone else will be. I will no longer be a hapless, pathetic victim. One thing is certain: the status quo just took a haymaker. No more. When will you be having sex with someone? How will you arrange this? Do you have someone lined up and ready to go, or do you mean you intend to start the process toward getting a partner for this? If so, how long do you anticipate it will be once that process has begun? How involved does she wish to be in this process? Is it a dating profile? Does she meet them when it gets serious? Does she help you with the dating profile? Does she want to help select the partner, or is it more of a Don't Ask Don't Tell kind of thing, where she finds out by accident all at once? (I don't recommend this approach, as it often ends up that the discovery gets treated as if it was an affair - so costs you the same). Does she want to be present when the sex occurs, if you are involving her? What's her role? Does she also want to have sex with someone? How's that going to sit with you, when she does it? IMPORTANT: Did she just take your tacit threat as permission for her to go out and get her own? I've seen this happen a bunch of times.
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 30, 2022 10:55:21 GMT -5
"In general, what I've found to be true in my own situation and countless others is that running out the clock favours the intimacy averse. Consider that the default state is for you NOT to be having sex except when you are." I am determined that there will be no quietly running out the clock. I have found my resolve, my self-respect, my balls. We've been talking. Maybe there is some hope? Maybe it's fool's gold. I won't be a nag. But I will be reminding her of our conversations of how important this is. I have the IDGAF emotionless roommate mode (effective in getting a conversation, with a threat of going permanent) and the ultimate trump card....if you're not having sex with me, someone else will be. I will no longer be a hapless, pathetic victim. One thing is certain: the status quo just took a haymaker. No more. When will you be having sex with someone? How will you arrange this? Do you have someone lined up and ready to go, or do you mean you intend to start the process toward getting a partner for this? If so, how long do you anticipate it will be once that process has begun? How involved does she wish to be in this process? Is it a dating profile? Does she meet them when it gets serious? Does she help you with the dating profile? Does she want to help select the partner, or is it more of a Don't Ask Don't Tell kind of thing, where she finds out by accident all at once? (I don't recommend this approach, as it often ends up that the discovery gets treated as if it was an affair - so costs you the same). Does she want to be present when the sex occurs, if you are involving her? What's her role? Does she also want to have sex with someone? How's that going to sit with you, when she does it? IMPORTANT: Did she just take your tacit threat as permission for her to go out and get her own? I've seen this happen a bunch of times. She is as straight-laced and prudish as they come, so there is no way she would seek sex with someone else. So that's out of the equation. Regarding the "how" I would proceed to find another sex partner, that's an unresolved question. I'll update my experiences soon on this. I am making sure we talk about this directly or indirectly every day. Some of it regarding libido, her health, what else is keeping her from it, etc. I am more optimistic than ever: either she will come around or she won't, but I won't be a victim.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Nov 30, 2022 13:13:17 GMT -5
She is as straight-laced and prudish as they come, so there is no way she would seek sex with someone else. So that's out of the equation. Regarding the "how" I would proceed to find another sex partner, that's an unresolved question. I'll update my experiences soon on this. I am making sure we talk about this directly or indirectly every day. Some of it regarding libido, her health, what else is keeping her from it, etc. I am more optimistic than ever: either she will come around or she won't, but I won't be a victim. In my post -marriage life, it's a normal thing to meet women who "thought they hated sex" in marriage to their former partner, but who now enjoy and seek out a robust sexual relationship now that their marriage to that person is over. Do you really think that if you divorced, that she would be celibate for the rest of her life? Some of us - me included - and people in my real life circles - discover that their "intimacy-averse" partners in marriage were having affairs externally as well. So, it's good to be cautious about what one thinks about their partners' intentions or habits. A lot of people get surprised. In terms of traction and leverage, it sounds like what you have at this stage is effectively the same deal that most people coming into this situation have - no better and no worse. Namely, an ongoing discussion of sexual dissatisfaction, with hints of maybe dealing with it at some future point that isn't today, and a partner who is treating it as such. I'm not sure what "a victim" means, specifically, the way you are using it. Do you know what that means in any practical sense?
|
|
|
Post by blunder8 on Nov 30, 2022 14:16:50 GMT -5
She is as straight-laced and prudish as they come, so there is no way she would seek sex with someone else. So that's out of the equation. Regarding the "how" I would proceed to find another sex partner, that's an unresolved question. I'll update my experiences soon on this. I am making sure we talk about this directly or indirectly every day. Some of it regarding libido, her health, what else is keeping her from it, etc. I am more optimistic than ever: either she will come around or she won't, but I won't be a victim. In my post -marriage life, it's a normal thing to meet women who "thought they hated sex" in marriage to their former partner, but who now enjoy and seek out a robust sexual relationship now that their marriage to that person is over. Do you really think that if you divorced, that she would be celibate for the rest of her life? VERY LIKELY SO, YESSome of us - me included - and people in my real life circles - discover that their "intimacy-averse" partners in marriage were having affairs externally as well. MY ODDS OF WINNING THE LOTTERY AND BEING STRUCK BY LIGHTNING ON THE SAME DAY ARE GREATER THAN DISCOVERING SHE IS HAVING AN AFFAIRSo, it's good to be cautious about what one thinks about their partners' intentions or habits. A lot of people get surprised. I KNOW HER VERY WELL.In terms of traction and leverage, it sounds like what you have at this stage is effectively the same deal that most people coming into this situation have - no better and no worse. PRETTY MUCH SO. Namely, an ongoing discussion of sexual dissatisfaction, with hints of maybe dealing with it at some future point that isn't today, and a partner who is treating it as such. This is where it's at. I've had two resets in the last 12 days. Victory? No. But that we're talking about this, frequently, and in more depth than ever, while actually having sex this month at a rate 8X the annual shag rate (ASR) indicates progress. She spoke to a clergy about her withholding sex from me and the shame she feels....something that is not easy to do. I don't know yet if it's lasting, or a more robust reset, but I've got to go forward with the mindset of being a foot in both worlds: this may not be permanent/this may be improving. How do you ever declare this 'solved?' In my mind, having sex three times per month, would be less than ideal, but at the same time a HUGE leap forward, one that I could accept. Knowing we don't get everything we want in life and in marriage I have to make terms with what is a minimum acceptable level and get her to agree to that. And then, if we only have sex 5 times over two months do I do another sit-down? I really do hate reducing it to such a "scoreboard" level but realize something has to be communicated to her or else there is no accountability. I'm not sure what "a victim" means, specifically, the way you are using it. Do you know what that means in any practical sense? VICTIM IS SILENTLY PARTICIPATING IN THAT WHICH IS KILLING YOU SLOWLY>
|
|