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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 28, 2017 2:38:19 GMT -5
Marriage is a choice. It is an agreement with mutual intention to create and fund a lifestyle together, and to be perceived as part of a pair in a permanent intimate partnership. For most of us, it is implied that such intimacy includes sexual expression.
Love is a feeling.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 28, 2017 11:38:23 GMT -5
I'll be interested in hearing why it's so important to you, considering you seem to have things figured out in your update a few minutes ago. I can't give you a better answer because I have no experience with marriage. I have 30 years experience in a legally enforced roommate deal of sorts. But it was never a marriage. Guess I just have a flair for the dramatic. Honestly, though, the main reason really is curiosity. When you look at a marriage you've been in for 20 years and realize that you and your wife have very different (and quite incompatible) views of what love and marriage are, it does tend to make you wonder what other people think of those subjects. Or maybe I'm just a weird dude. Coin flip, perhaps? I think you're overthinking the problem. You make a sausage chili. With your favorite Andouille sausage. Your wife hates it. Because she hates sausage. And through her actions and behavior, and her words, she makes that clear to you. So here you are, over-analyzing the problem. You try a different brand of sausage. You start thinking maybe you used the wrong brand of beans. Or maybe instead of kidney beans, let's try naval beans or some other bean. Or some other onion. Instead of a sweet onion maybe a red onion? Let's try changing the seasoning. Let's go through every one of the 20 other ingredients and see if we can come up with some sort of mix that will work for her. Something that will make her like sausage. When all along, the solution is simple: If you will simply make the chili with no sausage, you will have the idyllic life you talked about in your opening thread. Your wife simply does not like sex or affection. And you are probably confused because all during your courtship you made sausage chili and for some reason she ate it, and seemed to eat it enthusiastically. But now that she's married, she now refuses to eat your chili or anything else with sausage in it. And because of that disconnect, you are running in and out of rabbit holes, trying to figure out where the recipe went wrong. Yea, it's a mind fuck. But the observational evidence embodied in this forum is clear. If your marriage went sausage-less the day after the wedding, she simply doesn't like sausage and she was scamming you, in one way or the other, right up to that moment when you put a ring on your finger. Perhaps she knew that all men like sausage and the best way to get a man is to eat some sausage on the way to that much wanted trip down the isle. The likelihood of finding a man that hates sausage as much as her is nil, and she knew that. You could have saved your marriage. You didn't need a therapist or a witch doctor. *YOU* simply needed to be happy in a union of two people that precluded sex or affection. Or sausage. I'm sure all the other minor issues would have worked out, according to your posts. The rest of the recipe was probably fine.
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Post by TMD on Jan 28, 2017 13:49:50 GMT -5
Marriage is a choice. It is an agreement with mutual intention to create and fund a lifestyle together, and to be perceived as part of a pair in a permanent intimate partnership. For most of us, it is implied that such intimacy includes sexual expression. Love is a feeling. I've been thinking about your def'ns, after a particularly rough night, a long week, in which I was reduced to nothing but emotion at 7 pm. Navigating through that, I found myself on the other side this morning, slightly more clearheaded, and realizing that my resolve to love another spurs me to act intentionally in a loving manner. Is not "love" an action, also a choice? An "agreement with mutual intention to create a lifestyle together, and to be perceived as part of a pair in an intimate partnership?" Including sexual expression? Meh. I've been up since 4 am. I am not sure I'm making much sense.
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Post by lyn on Jan 28, 2017 14:26:17 GMT -5
Guess I just have a flair for the dramatic. Honestly, though, the main reason really is curiosity. When you look at a marriage you've been in for 20 years and realize that you and your wife have very different (and quite incompatible) views of what love and marriage are, it does tend to make you wonder what other people think of those subjects. Or maybe I'm just a weird dude. Coin flip, perhaps? I think you're overthinking the problem. You make a sausage chili. With your favorite Andouille sausage. Your wife hates it. Because she hates sausage. And through her actions and behavior, and her words, she makes that clear to you. So here you are, over-analyzing the problem. You try a different brand of sausage. You start thinking maybe you used the wrong brand of beans. Or maybe instead of kidney beans, let's try naval beans or some other bean. Or some other onion. Instead of a sweet onion maybe a red onion? Let's try changing the seasoning. Let's go through every one of the 20 other ingredients and see if we can come up with some sort of mix that will work for her. Something that will make her like sausage. When all along, the solution is simple: If you will simply make the chili with no sausage, you will have the idyllic life you talked about in your opening thread. Your wife simply does not like sex or affection. And you are probably confused because all during your courtship you made sausage chili and for some reason she ate it, and seemed to eat it enthusiastically. But now that she's married, she now refuses to eat your chili or anything else with sausage in it. And because of that disconnect, you are running in and out of rabbit holes, trying to figure out where the recipe went wrong. Yea, it's a mind fuck. But the observational evidence embodied in this forum is clear. If your marriage went sausage-less the day after the wedding, she simply doesn't like sausage and she was scamming you, in one way or the other, right up to that moment when you put a ring on your finger. Perhaps she knew that all men like sausage and the best way to get a man is to eat some sausage on the way to that much wanted trip down the isle. The likelihood of finding a man that hates sausage as much as her is nil, and she knew that. You could have saved your marriage. You didn't need a therapist or a witch doctor. *YOU* simply needed to be happy in a union of two people that precluded sex or affection. Or sausage. I'm sure all the other minor issues would have worked out, according to your posts. The rest of the recipe was probably fine. This sausage analogy is brilliant beachguy
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Post by McRoomMate on Jan 28, 2017 15:20:19 GMT -5
Marriage is a commitment between two people that establishes rights (financial) and obligations (sexual) because you love them so much, you only want to be with them until death do you part if it works out. Romantic love is about connection and caring. You just absolutely care about this person more than anyone else in the world. You desire this person, you want to kiss, cuddle, and make love to this person very passionately. Quickies are good too. The connection isn't just physical and emotional there should be an openness and a freeness where you can say anything to each other. @bbalgirl Superb. Inspiring. Fully concur.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 28, 2017 15:24:27 GMT -5
Guess I just have a flair for the dramatic. Honestly, though, the main reason really is curiosity. When you look at a marriage you've been in for 20 years and realize that you and your wife have very different (and quite incompatible) views of what love and marriage are, it does tend to make you wonder what other people think of those subjects. Or maybe I'm just a weird dude. Coin flip, perhaps? I think you're overthinking the problem. You make a sausage chili. With your favorite Andouille sausage. Your wife hates it. Because she hates sausage. And through her actions and behavior, and her words, she makes that clear to you. So here you are, over-analyzing the problem. You try a different brand of sausage. You start thinking maybe you used the wrong brand of beans. Or maybe instead of kidney beans, let's try naval beans or some other bean. Or some other onion. Instead of a sweet onion maybe a red onion? Let's try changing the seasoning. Let's go through every one of the 20 other ingredients and see if we can come up with some sort of mix that will work for her. Something that will make her like sausage. When all along, the solution is simple: If you will simply make the chili with no sausage, you will have the idyllic life you talked about in your opening thread. Your wife simply does not like sex or affection. And you are probably confused because all during your courtship you made sausage chili and for some reason she ate it, and seemed to eat it enthusiastically. But now that she's married, she now refuses to eat your chili or anything else with sausage in it. And because of that disconnect, you are running in and out of rabbit holes, trying to figure out where the recipe went wrong. Yea, it's a mind fuck. But the observational evidence embodied in this forum is clear. If your marriage went sausage-less the day after the wedding, she simply doesn't like sausage and she was scamming you, in one way or the other, right up to that moment when you put a ring on your finger. Perhaps she knew that all men like sausage and the best way to get a man is to eat some sausage on the way to that much wanted trip down the isle. The likelihood of finding a man that hates sausage as much as her is nil, and she knew that. You could have saved your marriage. You didn't need a therapist or a witch doctor. *YOU* simply needed to be happy in a union of two people that precluded sex or affection. Or sausage. I'm sure all the other minor issues would have worked out, according to your posts. The rest of the recipe was probably fine. Sorry to be a stick in the mud. The sausage analogy reminds me of a far greater issue ,"everything's great except for the sex." Normally there are many other problems that go with the marriage. So maybe we are not over analyzing the problem.? Speaking for myself, manipulative controller, covers the sex, intimacy, money, children, respect, trust, etc..... All 20 ingredients.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 28, 2017 15:39:40 GMT -5
In my case the sausage analogy is perfect. We got along great until I came out of the fog. I started detaching. He liked everything about me except sex. That was not acceptable to me so I give my chili to men that like it. If he liked my chili we'd still be married, nothing else was a dealbreaker for me.
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Post by beachguy on Jan 28, 2017 15:47:17 GMT -5
Sorry to be a stick in the mud. The sausage analogy reminds me of a far greater issue if only it was the sex. Normally there are many other problems that go with the marriage. So maybe we are not over analyzing the problem.? Speaking for myself, manipulative controller, covers the sex, intimacy, money, children, respect, trust, etc..... All 20 ingredients. What started first, your unhappiness over her controlling, manipulative behavior or the sexlessness?
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Post by McRoomMate on Jan 28, 2017 15:53:00 GMT -5
In Sum: LOVE is the ENERGY and MARRIAGE is the VEHICLE (a high maintenance vehicle that requires an active and fully committed crew of 2 - no more no less)
LOVE= First there is first the mad and passionate "Falling In Love" phase (mandatory in my mind) which as the Count de Valmont said "It is beyond my control" (Dangerous Liaisons) - of course this calms down over time - and morphs into a deep affection for the other person - but deep and strong need on physical/mental/spiritual level for the other person still and over time.
MARRIAGE (or long term commitment - for life ideally to death either formal or informal) - Keys for Success: 1. Mutual Attraction / Intimacy / Caring / Fulfilling most sacred of human needs (sex and intimacy the ultimate barometer / test indicator) 2. Compatibility / Shared Values - both must share some basic values and be compatible 3. Labor of Love - mandatory both are committed to give and sacrifice and commit - a lot of work but a "labor of love" 4. Trust / Admiration / EMPATHY - these are the glue and the bonds that keep it all together and functioning. Based on each spouse behavior towards the relationship and of these start to get weak and it gets replaced with the Toxic destroyers of Suspicion / Contempt/ Resentment etc.
As usual so many very helpful and inspiring posts - I am becoming an "ILIASM" junkie - so many good things to learn and read.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 28, 2017 16:04:32 GMT -5
Sorry to be a stick in the mud. The sausage analogy reminds me of a far greater issue if only it was the sex. Normally there are many other problems that go with the marriage. So maybe we are not over analyzing the problem.? Speaking for myself, manipulative controller, covers the sex, intimacy, money, children, respect, trust, etc..... All 20 ingredients. What started first, your unhappiness over her controlling, manipulative behavior or the sexlessness? Thank you for that question! Probably the manipulative controlling. It covers many other parts of the relationship. More time of the day, spent on all those things combined, with a greater impact than just the sexlessness. It all ties together though, a package deal, in the end.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 28, 2017 17:02:17 GMT -5
In my case the sausage analogy is perfect. We got along great until I came out of the fog. I started detaching. He liked everything about me except sex. That was not acceptable to me so I give my chili to men that like it. If he liked my chili we'd still be married, nothing else was a dealbreaker for me. Just trying to figure this out, by talking it out more. You did like everything about him except for the refusing sex part? There was the gambling, addiction, money issues, disrespect,and lack of trust, Just to highlight the main issues. All valid reasons to end the marriage. Add those all together with the sexless marriage, and it validates your case even stronger.
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Post by bballgirl on Jan 28, 2017 17:15:32 GMT -5
In my case the sausage analogy is perfect. We got along great until I came out of the fog. I started detaching. He liked everything about me except sex. That was not acceptable to me so I give my chili to men that like it. If he liked my chili we'd still be married, nothing else was a dealbreaker for me. Just trying to figure this out, by talking it out more. You did like everything about him except for the refusing sex part? There was the gambling, addiction, money issues, disrespect,and lack of trust, Just to highlight the main issues. All valid reasons to end the marriage. Add those all together with the sexless marriage, and it validates your case even stronger. I loved him. I still do, that's the sad part. I'm not in love anymore. I'm not attracted to him anymore BUT for the 21 plus years we were married and he did cheat our first year of marriage, he gambled but we got our bills paid one way or another, unreliable - getting the kids to school late, the verbal abuse came at the end when I was not his puppet anymore, but yes if he would have had sex with me I would have felt loved. You have to understand it wasn't all bad and years of abuse. He worked hard, provided well for us, called me beautiful, talked to me about what he was interested in which I was interested too, said "I love you" to each other everyday for twenty years. If I were asexual I would have been happy with him for a husband, but 13 years of celibacy morphed the marriage into something that wasn't marriage anymore. First ten years sex once a month it kept me on the hook and I was happy with other parts of our relationship there were things like the gambling that upset me but I loved him. Obviously more than he loved me. But he did. We still love each other it's just not romantic love but it's very sad.
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Post by baza on Jan 28, 2017 17:53:55 GMT -5
I must admit that I carry little pictures in my head about many ILIASM members. Sort of like when member X's name appears, and I think, "Ah yeah, they are the one with - - the druggie spouse - the manipulator spouse - the totally nuts spouse - the gambler spouse - the financially irresponsible spouse - the alky spouse - the abusive spouse - the user spouse - the shit of a person spouse - the intimidator spouse - the opiate addict spouse - the "whatever the core problem is" spouse
The no sex part of the deal is a given. That is common to all, the biggest indicator or symptom there is that something is fundamentally wrong in the deal.
And in my own situation, there were 4 main things badly awry in my deal. 5 if you count the absence of sex. Any one of these 4 behaviours were serious enough, but taken in isolation, not quite enough to warrant leaving. But the combination of the 4 things (5 if you want to count the sex) WAS enough to warrant leaving.
I doubt I would have left over the sex had it been the only issue. I doubt I would have left over the drinking had it been the only issue. I doubt I would have left over the financial irresponsibility had it been the only issue. I doubt I would have left over the lying had that been the only issue. But, taken in toto, these matters were a dealbreaker.
It wasn't "one thing". If I were to "rate" these individual things above, I think I'd put the gambling at the head of the list. The sex would be well down the list, and in any event, was a symptom, not a cause.
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 28, 2017 17:54:41 GMT -5
Just trying to figure this out, by talking it out more. You did like everything about him except for the refusing sex part? There was the gambling, addiction, money issues, disrespect,and lack of trust, Just to highlight the main issues. All valid reasons to end the marriage. Add those all together with the sexless marriage, and it validates your case even stronger. I loved him. I still do, that's the sad part. I'm not in love anymore. I'm not attracted to him anymore BUT for the 21 plus years we were married and he did cheat our first year of marriage, he gambled but we got our bills paid one way or another, unreliable - getting the kids to school late, the verbal abuse came at the end when I was not his puppet anymore, but yes if he would have had sex with me I would have felt loved. You have to understand it wasn't all bad and years of abuse. He worked hard, provided well for us, called me beautiful, talked to me about what he was interested in which I was interested too, said "I love you" to each other everyday for twenty years. If I were asexual I would have been happy with him for a husband, but 13 years of celibacy morphed the marriage into something that wasn't marriage anymore. First ten years sex once a month it kept me on the hook and I was happy with other parts of our relationship there were things like the gambling that upset me but I loved him. Obviously more than he loved me. But he did. We still love each other it's just not romantic love but it's very sad. I loved him. I still do. I'm not in love anymore. (I love chocolate, I am not in love with chocolate anymore) HUGH? sorry above my pay-grade LOL!! You have to understand it wasn't all bad and years of abuse. That I can relate to. The ten years or so after the last child was born, coasted along as I blindly accepted the sex once a year and took in the family first, all about the children concept. Kind of like getting in a sailboat and sailing half way across the lake. The wind was there, the boat worked, the sun was out, all in all not terribly bad. But the boat had to be paddled all the way back, and we didn't make it across the lake. Next time I go sailing the boat will have a motor as well. It is very sad. Fortunately you are worth so much more than that, (a luxury yacht!) enjoy the wind in your sails tomorrow. !
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Post by beachguy on Jan 28, 2017 18:09:55 GMT -5
Sorry to be a stick in the mud. The sausage analogy reminds me of a far greater issue ,"if only it was the sex." Normally there are many other problems that go with the marriage. So maybe we are not over analyzing the problem.? Speaking for myself, manipulative controller, covers the sex, intimacy, money, children, respect, trust, etc..... All 20 ingredients. I directed my thoughts at shamwow . If you go back to his original Welcome post here, he talks at length about a lack of sex and affection, and nothing about other deal breaker issues in his marriage. I would not have posted this to you because you are somewhat atypically dissatisfied with your marriage in many other ways, and you've been very vocal about that. Perhaps there was nothing in that chili recipe that worked for you? In my case my wife was very selfish and controlling but I think I would have likely stuck it out if we had had something more than a strict roommate relationship for so long. And the bait N switch pretty much destroyed my marriage from the very beginning. For me this is so profound that it's hard to envision what the relationship would have been like- it would have been totally alien to what I knew. I don't know what your honeymoon was like. For me, it was a bitter lesson that marriage sucked.
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