|
Post by hopingforachange on Jun 9, 2017 8:36:49 GMT -5
I realized I just had jumped into the forum and never gave a full into. We have been married for just over 10 years and have 2 young kids. Thru a lot of discussion I have discovered that the W's LL is due to the brain washing that the MIL did back when the W was younger. The W's 10 yearish older sister from the MIL 1st marriage has mental issues and went off the deep end with drugs, sleeping around, getting pregnant and running away with the druggy, abusive BF eventually married. So, the MIL's ensured the her viewed sex was dirty yucky thing that was for procreation after marriage. The sex for us picked up after we got married because it was now allowed since you have to wait until your married but since sex is still only for procreation, other sexual activities like oral and hands remained in the dirty/yucky category. While the quality, frequency, or variety was never enough to for-fill my desires, it was just enough to meet my needs, in the beggining. Her desire would increase when we were trying for kids. Unfortunately either she is super fertile or i have super sperm, because for the first kid, she got pregnant the month she stopped taking the pill and we only had sex 1 time due to being on a long extended family trip. With the 2nd kid, it took a a full cycle and then she was pregnant. If I remember correctly, we didn't have that much sex because she was sick due to the 1st kid bringing every bug known to man home from daycare. Basically, I got jipped out of baby making sex. In between the 1st and 2nd kids, the sex became less frequent and I didn't realized that I was becoming depressed. During the 2nd child's birth there was complications with him and the emotional stress contributed to me say "I don't want anymore kids". With those simple words, sex was no longer in the good category for procreation and was put back in the dirty yucky category. Over a short period of time, it dried up. Here is my first post that I made just after midnight on my birthday. iliasm.org/post/39752/threadNov 27, 2016 at 3:02am " Well 2 years ago there was a big argument over bday sex. A few weeks ago we had a argument over the lack of sex in our marriage and the complete lack of oral besides a lollipop lick that i have be beg for. This year it was suppository Bday sex around my bday. So, when I tried to get bday sex, I was told it already happened and it was 1 step away from plain vanilla. I don't know if next year we will be together, I am getting tired of sex being completely controlled by her." I was in a much darker place mentally due to my depression. I had already been taking anti-depressants for a few months at that point. I used the term "plain vanilla" because I didn't know the term starfish sex yet. A few weeks later, we had some major discussions and she decided she wants to work on her view of sex. *NOTE: This is the important difference between our relationship and many here, the refuser decided they wanted to change.* This is my posts from Jan16 iliasm.org/post/47836/threadJan 16, 2017 at 4:02pm "I am optimistic that my marriage is turning around and will stay in the new direction. After a big discussion and then a weekish later refusal night that I left the bed and stayed up until 2am, which happens to be the night that I find this site. The wife asked me to order "A good girls guide to great sex" from Amazon. She appears to be approaching intimacy and sex differently. I am thinning the change will last because she saw what I was going thru and decided to make the change her self." iliasm.org/post/47844/threadJan 16, 2017 at 4:39pm "Oh, she actually bought a thigh length lace trimmed night gown and wore it all night. She has bought multiple nice bra and panties.... they even sort of matched and are not white, black or flesh tone. Suddenly she has an interest in shopping at (store). She hasn't bought nice stuff since before we were married. When I was doing the laundry I commented that she got a $25 off coupon for (store) in her email after the purchase. She had a puzzled look when I asked if she would like the matching bra or underwear, like she didn't know there was such a thing as matching sets. and she liked when I could find the matches online. Although she didn't like that I also ordered 1 matching thong." About 6 months since she decided to change and we are still not sexually where we should be to for-fill my needs. Back in March we had a massive discussion and I spelled out what I need sexually, Monthly oral (at least me receiving), sex weekly but more important then the frequency is her desiring sex and me. Well, since then, only 2/3 of a BJ has happened and I was able to eat her 1 time, and oral is still in the dirty/ yucky category. This past month has been rough for us due to her being sick for 2 weeks, her period (she refuses to do anything at all) and then I went in for surgery, thus limiting what I can do and what she can do to me. So there was another massive argument/discussion about the lack of oral. I was accused of basically moving the goal posts because when she said she would try to do oral, it was a "long term" goal for it to happen monthly and she was focusing on "sex" (vaginal). I though she would actually attempt oral monthly but she was viewing it as something that she could work on in a few years after getting the sex where is needs to be. Due to her being upset with me for forcing the issue by attempting to sleep in the basement on the futon, she can't commit to including oral in our relationship. We are starting couples therapy next week. I am trying to remain hopeful that the relationship is coming around. But her delay tactics are causing more issues, almost like I am being strung along for as long as she can before I decided enough is enough and file for divorce.
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Jun 9, 2017 9:05:29 GMT -5
Hopingforchange,
I hope things work out for you. Having been myself in a decades-long SM that I got out of 4 years ago, I have empathy for you. So it's from that viewpoint that I'll pass along what it took me my long, miserable marriage to learn: You can't cajole, entreat, explain, counsel, etc. someone into sexually desiring you.
My guess is that if your wife was brought up to believe that sex is something vile and only for procreation, she likely shied away from guys who stirred sexual feelings in her due to her chemical attraction to them (and, yes, lots of sexual chemistry and compatibility is due to sexual chemistry -- whether a partner's smell turns you on. Look this up if you don't believe me). She probably decided to marry you because she didn't have those scary sexy feelings around you, and because you seemed like a good potential husband such as if you're a good member of her faith, have a steady job, seem to be very honest and responsible.
She probably can no more develop passion for you than you could develop passion for that nice woman you've known forever who also reminds you of your favorite aunt or your sister.
Does this mean that you are some kind of loathesome person whom no woman would desire? Of course not. It just means, you're with the wrong woman. Your wife may be with the wrong man -- if she wants to have a roaring sex life, but given that she probably doesn't, she is with exactly the right man for her: A pleasant, responsible man who'll do a good job of raising kids with her.
I hope I'm wrong, but I think that at best, counseling will result in duty sex from your wife, and that won't meet your human desire to have mutually enjoyable sex with someone who sexually desires you.
Still, going to counseling is a good thing. It may work out. If so, hooray! If not, then you've done your best and can based on that information decide whether there enough good things in the marriage for you to continue with it or whether you'd be happier setting yourself free.
|
|
|
Post by hopingforachange on Jun 9, 2017 9:26:23 GMT -5
northstarmomYes, I know in the end we might not be the right people for each other, once everything gets worked thru. But, in the end I will be able to walk away knowing I tried and knowing I was able to undo some of the brainwashing by her mother, by including sex in part of being in a loving relationship. I would feel bad if she resented me for being a sex craved husband that left her. I am certain that I was selected because of my stability and being viewed as a good father. She has hinted that the sexual attraction side didn't even enter into her selection criteria. She viewed me as being the steady safe person, providing stability to the relationship. She doesn't like that I am the one causing the storm in the relationship by up heaving what has been established and my repeated pushing for change.
|
|
|
Post by tiffanyc on Jun 9, 2017 10:22:17 GMT -5
I realized I just had jumped into the forum and never gave a full into. We have been married for just over 10 years and have 2 young kids. Thru a lot of discussion I have discovered that the W's LL is due to the brain washing that the MIL did back when the W was younger. The W's 10 yearish older sister from the MIL 1st marriage has mental issues and went off the deep end with drugs, sleeping around, getting pregnant and running away with the druggy, abusive BF eventually married. So, the MIL's ensured the her viewed sex was dirty yucky thing that was for procreation after marriage. The sex for us picked up after we got married because it was now allowed since you have to wait until your married but since sex is still only for procreation, other sexual activities like oral and hands remained in the dirty/yucky category. While the quality, frequency, or variety was never enough to for-fill my desires, it was just enough to meet my needs, in the beggining. Her desire would increase when we were trying for kids. Unfortunately either she is super fertile or i have super sperm, because for the first kid, she got pregnant the month she stopped taking the pill and we only had sex 1 time due to being on a long extended family trip. With the 2nd kid, it took a a full cycle and then she was pregnant. If I remember correctly, we didn't have that much sex because she was sick due to the 1st kid bringing every bug known to man home from daycare. Basically, I got jipped out of baby making sex. In between the 1st and 2nd kids, the sex became less frequent and I didn't realized that I was becoming depressed. During the 2nd child's birth there was complications with him and the emotional stress contributed to me say "I don't want anymore kids". With those simple words, sex was no longer in the good category for procreation and was put back in the dirty yucky category. Over a short period of time, it dried up. Here is my first post that I made just after midnight on my birthday. iliasm.org/post/39752/threadNov 27, 2016 at 3:02am "For me it is always weird. I consider Thanksgiving my birthday since I was born on Thanks giving and the normal birthday date is not realy my birthday. For the longest time, I would give my wife the benefit of the doubt if there was not Bday sex on thanksgiving since it can be a long and stressful day but would expect it to be made up on my birthday date. Well 2 years ago there was a big argument over it. A few weeks ago we had a argument over the lack of sex in our marriage and the complete lack of oral besides a lollipop lick that i have be beg for. This year it was suppository Bday sex between thanksgiving and my bday. So, when I tried to get bday sex, I was told it already happened and it was 1 step away from plain vanilla. I don't know if next thanksgiving we will be together, I am getting tired of sex being completely controlled by her." I was in a much darker place mentally due to my depression. I had already been taking anti-depressants for a few months at that point. I used the term "plain vanilla" because I didn't know the term starfish sex yet. A few weeks later, we had some major discussions and she decided she wants to work on her view of sex. *NOTE: This is the important difference between our relationship and many here, the refuser decided they wanted to change.* This is my posts from Jan16 iliasm.org/post/47836/threadJan 16, 2017 at 4:02pm "I am optimistic that my marriage is turning around and will stay in the new direction. After a big discussion and then a weekish later refusal night that I left the bed and stayed up until 2am, which happens to be the night that I find this site. The wife asked me to order "A good girls guide to great sex" from Amazon. She appears to be approaching intimacy and sex differently. I am thinning the change will last because she saw what I was going thru and decided to make the change her self." iliasm.org/post/47844/threadJan 16, 2017 at 4:39pm "Oh, she actually bought a thigh length lace trimmed night gown and wore it all night. She has bought multiple nice bra and panties.... they even sort of matched and are not white, black or flesh tone. Suddenly she has an interest in shopping at Soma. She hasn't bought nice stuff since before we were married. When I was doing the laundry I commented that she got a $25 off coupon for Soma in her email after the purchase. She had a puzzled look when I asked if she would like the matching bra or underwear, like she didn't know there was such a thing as matching sets. and she liked when I could find the matches online. Although she didn't like that I also ordered 1 matching thong." About 6 months since she decided to change and we are still not sexually where we should be to for-fill my needs. Back in March we had a massive discussion and I spelled out what I need sexually, Monthly oral (at least me receiving), sex weekly but more important then the frequency is her desiring sex and me. Well, since then, only 2/3 of a BJ has happened and I was able to eat her 1 time, and oral is still in the dirty/ yucky category. This past month has been rough for us due to her being sick for 2 weeks, her period (she refuses to do anything at all) and then I went in for surgery, thus limiting what I can do and what she can do to me. So there was another massive argument/discussion about the lack of oral. I was accused of basically moving the goal posts because when she said she would try to do oral, it was a "long term" goal for it to happen monthly and she was focusing on "sex" (vaginal). I though she would actually attempt oral monthly but she was viewing it as something that she could work on in a few years after getting the sex where is needs to be. Due to her being upset with me for forcing the issue by attempting to sleep in the basement on the futon, she can't commit to including oral in our relationship. We are starting couples therapy next week. I am trying to remain hopeful that the relationship is coming around. But her delay tactics are causing more issues, almost like I am being strung along for as long as she can before I decided enough is enough and file for divorce. Good luck. I sincerely hope things work out for you. Keep us posted.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 11:13:20 GMT -5
But her delay tactics are causing more issues, almost like I am being strung along for as long as she can before I decided enough is enough and file for divorce. When you want to have sex with someone - someone who there might be a risk with, or an inappropriate relationship even, someone geographically distant, or where privacy is an issue - you find a way. People do all the time. Even people who don't love each other, or even like each other. You two LIVE together. There is a stage when people start quantifying "amounts" and "acts" per month to approximate the anticipated results of what a sexual relationship would look like if mutual sexual desire is present. The only thing that can actually sustain that result, or portray it convincingly to a married couple who knows each other - is actual sexual desire for one's partner. This discussion of moving the goalpost and bargaining downward isn't what a person does when they want someone. You don't just want compliance or an enactment of desire - your goal is ACTUAL DESIRE from your partner. This cannot be faked. In the end, before or after whatever you try - it will come down to that very simple question.
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Jun 9, 2017 11:44:41 GMT -5
I'm going to have to agree with the others here. You can't make your wife desire you. And if you can't do that, you're just spinning your wheels. Apocrypha and northstarmom I do think it's interesting that both of you have been through divorce. Mine is mere days away, so I'm kind of lumping myself into the divorcee column for this purpose. I'm curious if it's just me, but it seems that the common experience is: - No Sex - Why Chasing - Blaming yourself / Trying to jump through all the right "hoops" to find the magic bullet to fix things - Realization that even if you knew why, it doesn't matter since you can't change someone else's desire long term - Stay / Cheat / Leave decision made Basically, until you get to that realization that the situation is what it is, you are "stuck" in place. And it's a dark and shitty place. And it also seems to me that those who pick Stay / Cheat remain stuck in that shithole even though no lasting change / fix is possible (still valid choices). I stayed in the shithole for almost two decades chasing why and trying everything you can imagine. It is only as I get closer to actually leaving that I have the perspective to see that NOTHING I could have done would have made her desire me. I wasted 20 years of my life (from a relationship perspective) trying to jump start a car that was missing a battery. Not her fault and certainly not my fault. Perhaps it's the perspective of being out or being close to out is what is needed. Talk about a chicken / egg problem. They need to teach this shit in school
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2017 12:37:58 GMT -5
I think there is a real detriment to staying in a sexless marriage. You're depriving yourself of a life lived. I can promise you that you'll try to assuage you sexual longing with some vice, like over eating, drinking, spending money, etc... Then there is the extreme loneliness of living with someone. That's the worse part. You have someone beside you and you're more alone than if you were by yourself.
You trade security for a life without another passionate human being to share it with. If both people do not want sex, then I can see where you could still have a good marriage. But when one of you wants sex, then it's a recipe for disaster.
I feel for you hopingforchange. I know where you're at. Why force your wife to give you a blow job? You might as well pay for one. That is what duty sex feels like. You're forcing your wife into giving you sex. If she does not comply, then you'll leave. That's coercion. I did this to my wife in the beginning. She genuinely tried to make me happy. It takes a piece of you when you force someone to do something.
I'm not asking anything of my wife anymore. I don't hug my wife unless I feel like it. I don't return the I love you when she says it. Unless I genuinely feel it. I no longer exercise with her or spend as much time with her. I'm not doing this to punish her. I'm detaching emotionally from her. It helps give me clarity about the relationship. I'm still pleasant to her but I'm not faking a relationship anymore.
I suggest you start the process of detaching emotionally from your wife. It'll take some time but you'll have more clarity about the relationship. You don't detach to punish your wife. It's for you. You'll be surprised how much happier you are when you accept that your wife does not desire sex with you. She'd be the same way with someone else. So don't take it personally. Just accept it for what it is.
|
|
|
Post by shamwow on Jun 9, 2017 12:49:41 GMT -5
I think there is a real detriment to staying in a sexless marriage. You're depriving yourself of a life lived. I can promise you that you'll try to assuage you sexual longing with some vice, like over eating, drinking, spending money, etc... Then there is the extreme loneliness of living with someone. That's the worse part. You have someone beside you and you're more alone than if you were by yourself. You trade security for a life without another passionate human being to share it with. If both people do not want sex, then I can see where you could still have a good marriage. But when one of you wants sex, then it's a recipe for disaster. I feel for you hopingforchange. I know where you're at. Why force your wife to give you a blow job? You might as well pay for one. That is what duty sex feels like. You're forcing your wife into giving you sex. If she does not comply, then you'll leave. That's coercion. I did this to my wife in the beginning. She genuinely tried to make me happy. It takes a piece of you when you force someone to do something. I'm not asking anything of my wife anymore. I don't hug my wife unless I feel like it. I don't return the I love you when she says it. Unless I genuinely feel it. I no longer exercise with her or spend as much time with her. I'm not doing this to punish her. I'm detaching emotionally from her. It helps give me clarity about the relationship. I'm still pleasant to her but I'm not faking a relationship anymore. I suggest you start the process of detaching emotionally from your wife. It'll take some time but you'll have more clarity about the relationship. You don't detach to punish your wife. It's for you. In many ways? It may also be for her. Many of our spouses are just as unhappy with the situation as we are, but lack the confidence / courage / initiative to do anything about it.
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Jun 9, 2017 12:59:40 GMT -5
I think there is a real detriment to staying in a sexless marriage. You're depriving yourself of a life lived. I can promise you that you'll try to assuage you sexual longing with some vice, like over eating, drinking, spending money, etc... Then there is the extreme loneliness of living with someone. That's the worse part. You have someone beside you and you're more alone than if you were by yourself. I have thought a lot about this in the last couple of years. Your experience may differ, but mine is that there are kinds of loneliness. I'm not less lonely than I was. In many ways, I've likely been more lonely. My "after marriage" hasn't been the "and then everything was better" story that often gets told. But, I'll tell you what I do have - and that is more authenticity about my situation, and my relationship with my ex. I have a feeling of truth after a market correction - this is where the ball lays. I no longer have an expectation of my relationship with her that disappoints and tortures me with a hope of something different. That arrived on its own after a long time of jealous pain, indignity, and jealousy. Jealous and hurt at the ease with which she shared herself with other men after me - right away. Like, the day after we talked about it and agreed to have a fallow period of a few months until we had physical separation, she posted her ad and began talking and meeting with suitors, one of which she still bangs weekly, a couple years later. After a year or two, I no longer really desire anything from her sexually, and that brings some level of peace.
|
|
|
Post by hopingforachange on Jun 9, 2017 13:00:26 GMT -5
The rationale side of my brain address and knows exactly what your are saying.
The emotional is saying one last try.
She has done duty sex before it was fing horrible. I will never again accept that. And I have told her that.
The only reason why I told her the frequency I need it's because she push me to give her a quantity amount. But I also made it clear that her wanting to do it is far far more important then checking the quantity box.
The therapy is going to be my last pay before determining my exit strategy. I will not model an unhealthy relationship to my children. And I can't stay in a relationship that does not for fill my emotional needs.
|
|
|
Post by h on Jun 9, 2017 16:54:55 GMT -5
The rationale side of my brain address and knows exactly what your are saying. The emotional is saying one last try. She has done duty sex before it was fing horrible. I will never again accept that. And I have told her that. The only reason why I told her the frequency I need it's because she push me to give her a quantity amount. But I also made it clear that her wanting to do it is far far more important then checking the quantity box. The therapy is going to be my last pay before determining my exit strategy. I will not model an unhealthy relationship to my children. And I can't stay in a relationship that does not for fill my emotional needs. I'm probably at about the same place but without the children. My situation is medically related. I'm giving her the Summer to get in to see her doctor (which I will be present for) and if nothing changes after that, this Fall I will start getting legal consultation. I have reached the point where enough is enough but I am giving her the chance to fix our marriage if she wants to. I'm very glad that I found this forum because it helped me get over the fear and express my dissatisfaction with the marriage bluntly to my W. Getting it out in the open is the first step.
|
|
|
Post by baza on Jun 10, 2017 0:10:28 GMT -5
Brother Apocrypha makes a telling point. If two people want to fuck, they find a way. They overcome things like physical distance, already being married, being of different religions, being sick, being old etc etc etc. If two people want to fuck, they overcome the logistical problems, and they fuck. Now here's us ILIASM people, in an institution blessed by the religious as an institution, recognised by the state as a legally binding union, approved by society as a valid partnership. In other words in an environment carrying the approval of just about everybody, plus physically available to each other under the same roof, and thus tailor made for the two spouses to fuck to their hearts content. But, despite the ideal conditions, one of the spouses ain't interested. Now, if the conditions are LESS than ideal, because of (insert the refusing spouses excuse here) then your odds of having a robust sex life are about *zero*. They ain't interested under the best of conditions, let alone less than ideal conditions.
|
|
|
Post by hopingforachange on Jun 10, 2017 7:10:44 GMT -5
The rationale side of my brain address and knows exactly what your are saying. The emotional is saying one last try. She has done duty sex before it was fing horrible. I will never again accept that. And I have told her that. The only reason why I told her the frequency I need it's because she push me to give her a quantity amount. But I also made it clear that her wanting to do it is far far more important then checking the quantity box. The therapy is going to be my last pay before determining my exit strategy. I will not model an unhealthy relationship to my children. And I can't stay in a relationship that does not for fill my emotional needs. I'm probably at about the same place but without the children. My situation is medically related. I'm giving her the Summer to get in to see her doctor (which I will be present for) and if nothing changes after that, this Fall I will start getting legal consultation. I have reached the point where enough is enough but I am giving her the chance to fix our marriage if she wants to. I'm very glad that I found this forum because it helped me get over the fear and express my dissatisfaction with the marriage bluntly to my W. Getting it out in the open is the first step. If it wasn't for my young kids, it would have been over already. This is going to be my last try to get the marriage corrected.
|
|
|
Post by eightsandaces on Jun 10, 2017 17:47:07 GMT -5
northstarmom Yes, I know in the end we might not be the right people for each other, once everything gets worked thru. But, in the end I will be able to walk away knowing I tried and knowing I was able to undo some of the brainwashing by her mother, by including sex in part of being in a loving relationship. I would feel bad if she resented me for being a sex craved husband that left her. I am certain that I was selected because of my stability and being viewed as a good father. She has hinted that the sexual attraction side didn't even enter into her selection criteria. She viewed me as being the steady safe person, providing stability to the relationship. She doesn't like that I am the one causing the storm in the relationship by up heaving what has been established and my repeated pushing for change. This is exactly how I feel like he will say I was totally unsympathetic to his ED, that I just wanted dick. All I want is a man who won't fall asleep during a bj and will at least act like he's enjoying it. Doesn't help when my ex boyfriend tells me he'd sell his soul for one more.
|
|
|
Post by hopingforachange on Jun 11, 2017 7:13:14 GMT -5
northstarmom Yes, I know in the end we might not be the right people for each other, once everything gets worked thru. But, in the end I will be able to walk away knowing I tried and knowing I was able to undo some of the brainwashing by her mother, by including sex in part of being in a loving relationship. I would feel bad if she resented me for being a sex craved husband that left her. I am certain that I was selected because of my stability and being viewed as a good father. She has hinted that the sexual attraction side didn't even enter into her selection criteria. She viewed me as being the steady safe person, providing stability to the relationship. She doesn't like that I am the one causing the storm in the relationship by up heaving what has been established and my repeated pushing for change. This is exactly how I feel like he will say I was totally unsympathetic to his ED, that I just wanted dick. All I want is a man who won't fall asleep during a bj and will at least act like he's enjoying it. Doesn't help when my ex boyfriend tells me he'd sell his soul for one more. Shit, it's been over a decade since I had my last full complete bj from the W. The craziest thing is my previous relationship was with a HL gf. She came back to visit hey home town (I still live her), I slightly mentioned how long it has been since a bj as we were reminiscing about old times. She looked down seeing the toddler asleep and gave me the look. If I wasn't in denial of my best near SM, I would have made a deal with the devil.
|
|