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Post by Venus Erotes on Jun 24, 2017 8:44:29 GMT -5
Oh my goodness hopingforachange Does she understand that not having sex with you is her telling you she doesn't love you? You feel rejected? Isolated? Depressed? Does she understand sexual abandonment is reason for divorce and one of the major reasons for divorce in this country? Is she willing to work on her issues to keep the marriage? and my final question.... What are you doing for YOU? How are you taking care of yourself? Yes she does, all of those emotions have been discussed during therapy or during our nightly talks. Now she feels bad about how much pain she caused over the years. Just a few months ago I started doing activities that I enjoyed again but I had to limit what I could do as I recover from surgery. That's right - surgery. Hope you are healing quickly! She's going to have a TON of emotional crap to deal with. Is she going to counseling for her shit?
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Post by csl on Jun 24, 2017 10:44:40 GMT -5
An instance such as described by Brother csl - where the avoidant spouse had an unsolicited epiphany and started doing something about it of their own volition - would show quite a bit of potential I think. And in such circumstances it would behove the refused spouse to chuck their full weight of support behind the avoidant spouse. Can't say as I recall too many - if any - examples in this group of an avoidant spouse acting in such a manner. It's hard to be fully supportive of my W. Emotionally, I had to ball everything up inside to survive. Now I have to deal with the feelings to support my W and to be a good H. My W primary love languages are words of affirmation and quality time. I have a hard time with words of affirmation because while she is being a good wife now, I have to deal with her being a bad W for a decade+. So, my compliments are awkward as I navigate my emotions. But I can do quality time easily and be emotionally presents for our discussions. I'm making a big leap in assumptions, but because your wife finding her epiphany in a Christian book, I'm assuming you are not unfamiliar with Christian concepts and approaches. If so, have a look at Tim Kimmel's Grace-Filled Marriage. It may help. If my assumptions are wrong,... well, it won't be the firs time.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jun 24, 2017 21:42:37 GMT -5
Yes she does, all of those emotions have been discussed during therapy or during our nightly talks. Now she feels bad about how much pain she caused over the years. Just a few months ago I started doing activities that I enjoyed again but I had to limit what I could do as I recover from surgery. That's right - surgery. Hope you are healing quickly! She's going to have a TON of emotional crap to deal with. Is she going to counseling for her shit? She might go by herself later. I told her that I am no going to hold or use the years of near SM against her. We were never truly sexless, she would have sex often enough so that I wouldn't emotionally starve to death. She appears to be enjoying her new found ability to enjoy sex. Although she did want a night off tonight. I think she is checking to make sure she wouldn't feel guilty for not having sex and she is worried that I will revert after not having sex. I think it is a silly test. I would rather have tested to see if we could finish the box of condoms before the end of the month.
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Post by baza on Jun 24, 2017 22:00:10 GMT -5
Just going back through your posts Brother hopingforachange and it seems from the get go that your deal was / is at the top end of ILIASM deals seen in here which theoretically means it would be at the top end of ILIASM deals with some potential to recover / rebuild or however you wish to term it. Not that "potential" is a particularly valuable commodity, the world is full of people with unrealised potential, so I figure that your deal is going to come down to how much of the potential can be realised. Your potential, her potential and the synergy of potential in the "us". Do you reckon that *you* are in a better place than you were a year ago ? (it reads like you are)
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Post by hopingforachange on Jun 25, 2017 5:47:58 GMT -5
bazaYes I am in a much better place. It was from a combination of things, the anti depressents helped me get my head above water to figure out why I was depressed. Once I figured out the sex was a big issue, I found everyone here. Finding the acceptance here and knowing I was not alone with the near SM helped keep my above water and gave me the confidence to confront my W. Her choices made the difference in the marriage, I will stay if things continue on this path and more needed things are added to the bedroom (oral and variety). But if they don't, I am mentally in a place that I can be ok leaving and don't feel trapped without a way to escape. I would agree that we were in the top end of the iliasm spectrum. There decline was a slow one for us and I saw the writing on the walls when I finally was able to see what was going on. I am optimistic that the marriage will be rebuilt. I don't see it as repairing it recovery since there was major belief issues on her side about sex within a marriage and my unhappiness was also undermining the marriage. I don't think we would have the same rebuilding potential of we had kept going for another 10 years. The resentment on my side alone would have made it impossible, even if she woke up one day and wanted to change.
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Post by h on Jun 26, 2017 5:12:41 GMT -5
baza Yes I am in a much better place. It was from a combination of things, the anti depressents helped me get my head above water to figure out why I was depressed. Once I figured out the sex was a big issue, I found everyone here. Finding the acceptance here and knowing I was not alone with the near SM helped keep my above water and gave me the confidence to confront my W. Her choices made the difference in the marriage, I will stay if things continue on this path and more needed things are added to the bedroom (oral and variety). But if they don't, I am mentally in a place that I can be ok leaving and don't feel trapped without a way to escape. I would agree that we were in the top end of the iliasm spectrum. There decline was a slow one for us and I saw the writing on the walls when I finally was able to see what was going on. I am optimistic that the marriage will be rebuilt. I don't see it as repairing it recovery since there was major belief issues on her side about sex within a marriage and my unhappiness was also undermining the marriage. I don't think we would have the same rebuilding potential of we had kept going for another 10 years. The resentment on my side alone would have made it impossible, even if she woke up one day and wanted to change. Congratulations on your progress! I agree, finding this place is the best thing that ever happened to me and it has given me the confidence to speak my mind. I never would have had the courage to confront my W had it not been for the people here. It did wonders for my peace of mind to know that I wasn't alone in my struggle.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 26, 2017 11:35:20 GMT -5
hopingforachange - I am cheering you on here!!! Good stuff. Your W sounds much like mine in so many ways; they want to do what is best or right and do not want to "hurt" anyone but somehow locked down sexually (for any variety of reasons) - at least once married that is. Just the same. I am encouraged for you at her current willingness. If she really can (this is usually a BIG IF) understand the magnitude of the destruction that constant rejection creates, her care factor (it sounds like she DOES care) may take you where you want to be. Mine can try but she never bought any clothes from Soma - you're in a decent place right now! Please keep us posted as we all want to see a success story.
Years ago My W's sister made a deal with my Bother in law (great hardworking guy) for regular sex if he would stop drinking. It was HIS idea and he loves beer but sex more of course. In less than a year and she reverted and he drinks more than ever. When suggested (I am quite opinionated in this matter of course)he needs more sex, she states "ahh, he was over that long ago". AHHHHH, delusional - she is in utter denial. I told her she was simply wrong. So slow forward 17 years and She is unhappy, he is disgusted with her overall laziness but she cannot understand or accept the pain he is in. My point is, she is too proud to admit her issue and just be there for hi. But I think your wife really wants her whole circle to be happy. I won't offer any caveat here as I can see from your posts that you are observing and treading carefully still believing you may be out the door if this sex action is short lived.
BTW - I also bought the book "Good girls Guide..." along with a few others. I have them in a gift box as a (an out the door jab) "future wedding" present to my W if/when I leave - for the benefit of the next guy - to keep him from the torture that is a SM. It is hard to get her to read anything though she will watch counselors on TV - they get me some action occasionally. They always promote sex in marriage as a God designed gift that should be fully enjoyed. I get two positions (ain't really fully enjoyed) but it is something.
I also measure "success" in how quickly we may go through a 12 pack. She is decent (lately) about obliging when I ask but does not initiate and then still far too many restrictions.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 26, 2017 11:44:33 GMT -5
hopingforachange - I am cheering you on here!!! Good stuff. Your W sounds much like mine in so many ways; they want to do what is best or right and do not want to "hurt" anyone but somehow locked down sexually (for any variety of reasons) - at least once married that is. Just the same. I am encouraged for you at her current willingness. If she really can (this is usually a BIG IF) understand the magnitude of the destruction that constant rejection creates, her care factor (it sounds like she DOES care) may take you where you want to be. Mine can try but she never bought any clothes from Soma - you're in a decent place right now! Please keep us posted as we all want to see a success story.
Years ago My W's sister made a deal with my Bother in law (great hardworking guy) for regular sex if he would stop drinking. It was HIS idea and he loves beer but sex more of course. In less than a year and she reverted and he drinks more than ever. When suggested (I am quite opinionated in this matter of course)he needs more sex, she states "ahh, he was over that long ago". AHHHHH, delusional - she is in utter denial. I told her she was simply wrong. So slow forward 17 years and She is unhappy, he is disgusted with her overall laziness but she cannot understand or accept the pain he is in. My point is, she is too proud to admit her issue and just be there for hi. But I think your wife really wants her whole circle to be happy. I won't offer any caveat here as I can see from your posts that you are observing and treading carefully still believing you may be out the door if this sex action is short lived.
BTW - I also bought the book "Good girls Guide..." along with a few others. I have them in a gift box as a (an out the door jab) "future wedding" present to my W if/when I leave - for the benefit of the next guy - to keep him from the torture that is a SM. It is hard to get her to read anything though she will watch counselors on TV - they get me some action occasionally. They always promote sex in marriage as a God designed gift that should be fully enjoyed. I get two positions (ain't really fully enjoyed) but it is something.
I also measure "success" in how quickly we may go through a 12 pack. She is decent (lately) about obliging when I ask but does not initiate and then still far too many restrictions.
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My story
Jun 26, 2017 12:39:42 GMT -5
via mobile
Post by northstarmom on Jun 26, 2017 12:39:42 GMT -5
"BTW - I also bought the book "Good girls Guide..." along with a few others. I have them in a gift box as a (an out the door jab) "future wedding" present to my W if/when I leave - for the benefit of the next guy - to keep him from the torture that is a SM. It is hard to get her to read anything though she will watch counselors on TV - they get me some action occasionally. They always promote sex in marriage as a God designed gift that should be fully enjoyed. I get two positions (ain't really fully enjoyed) but it is something."
One of the beauties of exiting a sm is your ex partner's sexual perspective is no longer your concern or business. You can let go and they can choose to boink or not bother....
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Post by h on Jun 26, 2017 14:52:32 GMT -5
I think the best books I have found so far are the "For Women Only" and "For Men Only" by Shaunti Feldhahn. They are written to each spouse to explain the other's thought process and behavior. They are not just about sex but cover a wide range of topics that men and women generally think differently about. They are short and easy reading also. They should be required reading for anyone who is getting married.
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My story
Jun 26, 2017 15:43:04 GMT -5
h likes this
Post by csl on Jun 26, 2017 15:43:04 GMT -5
I think the best books I have found so far are the "For Women Only" and "For Men Only" by Shaunti Feldhahn. They are written to each spouse to explain the other's thought process and behavior. They are not just about sex but cover a wide range of topics that men and women generally think differently about. They are short and easy reading also. They should be required reading for anyone who is getting married. Paul Byerly writes a blog entitled The XY Code, to explain Men to those of feminine persuasion.
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Post by cagedadventurer on Jun 28, 2017 11:21:20 GMT -5
Brother Apocrypha makes a telling point. If two people want to fuck, they find a way. They overcome things like physical distance, already being married, being of different religions, being sick, being old etc etc etc. If two people want to fuck, they overcome the logistical problems, and they fuck. Now here's us ILIASM people, in an institution blessed by the religious as an institution, recognised by the state as a legally binding union, approved by society as a valid partnership. In other words in an environment carrying the approval of just about everybody, plus physically available to each other under the same roof, and thus tailor made for the two spouses to fuck to their hearts content. But, despite the ideal conditions, one of the spouses ain't interested. Now, if the conditions are LESS than ideal, because of (insert the refusing spouses excuse here) then your odds of having a robust sex life are about *zero*. They ain't interested under the best of conditions, let alone less than ideal conditions. VERY WELL STATED apocrypha! "If two people want to fuck, they find a way." You have to think of how harsh living conditions were for millenia. Even as recently as the settling of the western U.S., lack of showers, poor hygiene, no air conditioning, arranged marriages (mail brides), labor intensive survival day after day, the constant worries of just surviving. NONE of that is so much us in 2017, yet "despite the ideal conditions, one of the spouses ain't interested." One of the major frustrations however is that we know our spouses are capable, they can boink whenever and however. (e.g. , pre-marriage, when pregnancy is desired, when they sense discontent and need to keep things on track, pool boy, after counseling, etc. ). Damn it! Just screw me already and tell me to have a great day at work and I probably will.
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Post by hopingforachange on Jun 28, 2017 14:39:55 GMT -5
We have had more nights of talking until crazy hours of the night and another round of therapy we are getting better. The crazy thing is that I am getting less sleep but don't feel as tired as I should but I also haven't had the starting at the ceiling at 3 am insomnia. Instead we have been having sex. I am also believing her more now about her changing her views on sex. Especially since she called me upstairs for lunch time sex! I think the last time we had sex during daylight hours was May 2012 when just the 2 of us went on a work trip and had hotel sex. It is a crazy good feeling to have sex 2 times right around 12 hrs apart. It is one of those things that I never pictured happening in our marriage before.
She still is worried that there is a libido miss match between us, and her frequency of desire might drop after the newness of her wanting sex wears off.
Not everything is perfect, there is still issues and things like oral that are not happening in the bedroom, but comparatively, this is amazingly better.
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Post by hopingforachange on Sept 29, 2017 7:54:11 GMT -5
I have been meaning to write an update for a while now.
Things have continued to improve. After the next session the counselor suggested we switch to every other week, which we agree with. We have both been expressing our emotions and feelings more lately and treating the other's with respect.
On the sex side, except for the past 2 weeks where we were both sick, we have been averaging between 3 to 4 times a week with 1 person getting manual attention 1 night a week. To answer your question, YES sex that often is AMAZING!! It has brought out all sorts of crazy emotions in me. The weirdest is me respecting me feelings when I'm not in the mood! Yes, I have not been in the mood some nights. It is usually from the W not showing any physical affection the entire day, leaving me feeling unloved and expecting me to still respond to her requesting sex right now. Normally though, it is still a crap load of work to have sex, I still have to defrost the glacier with a hair drier. It can take almost an hour of talking or jumping thru hoops to get her in the mood. If I try to initiate just letting me emotions drive me, she often puts on the brakes, and then when she's ready to go, she expects me to be in exactly the same emotion spot, like she paused a movie. Well, my emotions don't work like that anymore, I'm not sex starved. So, now she actually has to do a little bit work to get me in the mood, but she often doesn't.
There is still things we have to work on like having any type of light during sex, getting her to actively initiate, and oral. Oral is still a big issue for me. I don't know if it is still a deal breaker for me, but it is still important.
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Post by worksforme2 on Sept 29, 2017 8:30:45 GMT -5
I have been meaning to write an update for a while now. There is still things we have to work on like having any type of light during sex, getting her to actively initiate, and oral. Oral is still a big issue for me. I don't know if it is still a deal breaker for me, but it is still important. This is great news for all here. It's so seldom we get anything positive when it comes to a potential real turn around. On the subject of oral...The woman I am seeing currently never gave or received oral during the 30 yrs. she was married. Only after the divorce and dating again was she initiated into this activity. I thank the guy before me who helped her to realize how enjoyable the experience can be. I have been doing my part to reinforce her newfound robust enthusiasm. Hopefully your W will willingly have a go at some point in the near future. Pleasuring her for a period of time(say a month) before asking her to do the same for you might be something you might consider, when she is ready. And be sure you adjust your diet to make your semen as tasty as possible.
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