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Post by bballgirl on Nov 30, 2017 11:08:03 GMT -5
"BUT the incidents where meetings were arranged in hotel rooms?! What were these women thinking? Why didn't they say "let's meet in the lobby?" 1. The women may have thought the man had a suite. Bigwigs get suites. They look like small conference rooms. 2. The women may have been simply naive like the college freshman I knew who was chaperoning a trip of high school students. The other chaperone was about 30 years older than her and very fat and homely. At best, she thought of him as a mentor or a father figure. When he asked her to his room to watch TV, she went. When he greeted her in his pajamas, she felt uncomfortable, but thought there was something wrong with her for suspecting he was trying to seduce her. It was when he said that he wanted to cuddle with her on the bed that she decided to leave. He was my former employee. She was my mentee. What he did was attempt to take advantage of someone who was young and naive. 3. I also know a woman who was grey haired, about 60, chubby and a church secretary. She went to a church conference with her pastor. He asked her to come to his room to pick up some paperwork and when she got there, he pushed her on the bed and tried to rape her. There are lots of reasons a woman may not think that an invitation to a hotel room is an invitation for sex. However, given the experiences of people like the above, when I was teaching college students and took them to conferences, I told them not to go to any person of the opposite sex's room unless they were interested in sex. I'd also seen how older men would prey on naive coeds. I also assumed the same could happen to young men, so I was very clear that unless they were interested in sex, they should not go to anyone's hotel room. Most people, however, don't get that kind of advice and are, thus, prey for predators. In all honesty, if you were an 60ish church secretary and your pastor asked you to come pick up paperwork in hisb hotel room, would you expect him to try to rape you? Similarly, a young woman with some kind of entry job for a much older celebrity probably wouldn't expect that if he asked her to come to his room for work that he'd meet her unclothed at the door. Awful about the pastor! Moral of the story - never trust anyone and hotel rooms are for sex. Ask to meet in the lobby, they are very nice and have complimentary beverages. |
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Post by TMD on Dec 1, 2017 0:02:09 GMT -5
There’s a story of a female journalist interviewing David Schwimmer. In it they are in a noisy restaurant and it’s hard to focus on interview. He suggests that he can invite a third party to be with them in his room, where it’s quieter, and to signify accountability (as in, he’s a decent guy concerned about the journalist feeling safe). There are some good people out there. And it was refreshing to read this.
However, the “you should know better than to go to hotel room” is classic victim blaming. People (note, I’m not focusing on one gender) should be held to higher standards and accountable for manipulating others. The invite should never be made without proper protocols in place IF a hotel is to be used for meeting space. Or better yet, how about NOT the hotel room? The lobby works. A quiet corner of a bar or restaurant, if possible. The options are limitless.
Stop blaming the victim. Hold rapists and abusers accountable for their behavior. Full stop.
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Post by DryCreek on Dec 1, 2017 0:56:31 GMT -5
Holding the victim accountable for poor judgement doesn't excuse the offender in the least.
If I get murdered walking down a dark alley alone in a bad part of town while loaded down with flashy jewelry, the killer is 100% responsible for his actions. And I am 100% at fault for putting myself in harm's way.
One doesn't preclude the other. Getting hurt doesn't excuse one from being diligent.
But still, the bigger issue I see lately is a free-for-all with presumption of guilt. And while facts may bear that many/most claims are historically true, if we continue with this social attitude of public lynching without due process, it's laying the foundation for a future of false claims destroying innocent people.
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Post by tamara68 on Dec 1, 2017 3:49:48 GMT -5
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Post by petrushka on Dec 1, 2017 6:01:10 GMT -5
Mass hysteria is nothing new. "burn the witch, burn her, burn her!" Monty Python and Rowan Atkinson in "Blackadder" took the piss out of this, but it is rooted in historic precedents. Alien abductions. Recovered memory syndrome. blah, blah blah --- too many to list. Lemmings going over the edge. [begin rant] These days it's not safe for a male to work in a kindergarten, even with female coworkers always being present. We have a historic case here in NZ where a man was thrown in prison for being a member of a pedophile ring abducting the kids from the kindy to a castle with a basement where groups of men would stand around the kids and watch them pee (supposedly), when his female coworkers tried to speak up for him they were threatened with jail also. One overzealous cop and one hysterical mother was all it took. No evidence. They even brought in a psychologist from Aus who said the stories were just bunkum (more in line with early childhood sexual fantasies) but he was disregarded. Don't be a lemming. Don't be a sheep that runs with the flock, never mind where. I read some of that "me too" stuff. A woman nearly had to vomit, she claims, in a restaurant, when her workmate declared he found her very attractive. Seriously? It's coming to the point where men cannot give a compliment to a woman without running in danger of being accused. It makes me angry and sad. It's refusers running rampant. Is it victim blaming when I ask myself this: a woman spends 40 minutes in the morning primping and putting on warpaint before going out. When someone tells her she looks attractive - it's harrassment. Of course, if the one guy she is interested in says it, it's not harrassment. But, how is anyone supposed to know?!? This is one fucked up game. For men it's a lose lose proposition - never mind what intentions you have be they ever so honorable. When I hear the sage advice "don't ever go into a room ...." I can only shake my head. How many times I've gone to a room with someone(s) and nothing untoward ever happened. 50 years ago, 40 years ago, 30 years ago, 20 years ago. Suddenly it's a looming threat. I think someone got to your head when that's how you perceive the world... In fact, anyone who thinks like that, I don't want to have anything to do with, certainly not go into a room with even if it was to ask them out for a cup of coffee. Go hunt your witches without me. I prefer sane, independent, strong people who have a mind of their own. Even my refuser thinks it's gone completely nuts. [end rant] |
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 1, 2017 7:54:10 GMT -5
I was not surprised by the numbers of women claiming #me too. I also think most have experienced sexual assault or harassment that most people here would consider sexual assault or harassment. Why?
Official US stats on rape: one in 6 women. For child sexual abuse, one in 5 women was abused as a child.
In real life, I am the type of person people tell their secrets to. Thus, when I was a high school senior, I learned my best friend was raped by a minister’s son. She was visiting his home with some other friends. His parents were not home. He took her on s tour of his house then raped her in the laundry room. She screamed but the others there ignored those screams. She was a virgin.
A year or so later, my other best friend was raped by her boyfriend. She was a virgin. Years later, she revealed that as a child she had been sexually abused several times by her older brother’s friend.
One of my college roommates was sexually abused as a child by her much older brother.
Another adult friend told me that when she was 12 and visiting her uncle, he raped her while she was attempting to nap. He blamed her.
A friend said that when her daughter was a teen, she was gang raped by men she worked with at a pizza parlor. A coworker told me her adult daughter was raped as a teen. A woman in my theater troupe told me that when she was in college, she was raped in a parking garage. She reported it to police. They blamed her for wearing a mini skirt.
A former boyfriend was raped as a child by his next door neighbor. A male friend was molested as a child by a counselor at his church’s summer camp.
My ex husband’s sister was raped by a burgler.
An acquaintance who was in her 60s, gray haired and chubby said that a few years previously while she was employed as her churche’s secretary, the pastor had tried to rape her.
My own experiences include having my breast grabbed when a male hairdresser slipped his hand under my top while he was doing my hair. A boss slapped my ass at work when he was walking by. I also believe a male friend a few years ago tried to drug me so he could rape me.
I had met a group of friends at a bar to celebrate my birthday. I’d had one glass of champagne. When it was time to leave, I could hardly walk. A woman friend saw that and drove me home. the next day a male friend texted me and said he’d enjoyed talking to me at my celebration. He also said that he didn’t drink so if I ever decided to go out drinking, he’d be glad to drive me home.
I had no memory of seeing him the night before. When I told my woman friend about that, she said I’d actually talked to the man for at least 15 minutes. She suggested he must have slipped something in my drink. That idea makes sense to me.
Most of the incidents reported above were never reported to police. Some of the victims revealed their rapes to me years later and I was the first person they told. Victims keep secrets because they blame themselves or fear not being believed. First time I told anyone about my the actions of my former boss and hairdresser was in response to #me too.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 1, 2017 8:04:18 GMT -5
petrushkaI'd like to expand upon something you said about a man not even being able to pay a woman a compliment. There's a big difference between 'you look nice today,' and 'nice tits.' However, neither of these belong in the workplace. My latest uphill work battle: Bill: good morning, beautiful. Me: thank you, but that isn't my name. Please call me by my name. The next morning: Bill: good morning, beautiful. Me: Bill, I asked you yesterday not to address me this way. This hasn't changed with the flip of the calendar. The following morning: Bill: good morning, beautiful. Me: Bill, stop addressing me this way. This went on several more times until I told him not to address me at all until he was able to address me as a colleague with a name. Since then, he has refused to speak to me at all. It's pretty funny since one of my responsibilities is coaching him and about 75 other agents. He panics when the three other coaches aren't at their desks. Of course, when he asks me for help, I will assist. His supervisor has recommended he attend a sensitivity and professionalism seminar.
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Post by h on Dec 1, 2017 8:16:38 GMT -5
northstarmom thank you for sharing these very real and very painful stories. That is the reason why I am so vocal about false accusers and people who claim rape or molestation after consenting, adult encounters. False accusations not only ruin decent people's lives, but drown out the pleas for help from REAL victims. Victims who deserve to be heard and believed and to have their abusers brought to justice. I can't imagine what these people went through and continue to deal with. It's just terrible.
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Post by Dan on Dec 1, 2017 9:40:25 GMT -5
We are definitely in some "moment" where all of this is just pouring and pouring out. There are certainly some awful wrongs to be aired (probably crimes), and some cringe-worthy bits, too (possibly not crimes, but come on...). It has even caused some reasonably interesting discussions betwixt me, my wife, and my 17 y.o. daughter. (We are of pretty similar mind on all of this.)
My main hope:
As all these rich/powerful/public/celebrity men face the music for their actions (*), that real change will happen soon for the working woman who is harassed by non-celebrity men, such as their low-level boss at a big box store, or small office, or what have you. If those women went to the press, do you think they would get front-page coverage?
(*: my opinion is still on hold for Keillor.)
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Post by hopingforachange on Dec 1, 2017 9:41:21 GMT -5
There’s a story of a female journalist interviewing David Schwimmer. In it they are in a noisy restaurant and it’s hard to focus on interview. He suggests that he can invite a third party to be with them in his room, where it’s quieter, and to signify accountability (as in, he’s a decent guy concerned about the journalist feeling safe). There are some good people out there. And it was refreshing to read this. However, the “you should know better than to go to hotel room” is classic victim blaming. People (note, I’m not focusing on one gender) should be held to higher standards and accountable for manipulating others. The invite should never be made without proper protocols in place IF a hotel is to be used for meeting space. Or better yet, how about NOT the hotel room? The lobby works. A quiet corner of a bar or restaurant, if possible. The options are limitless. Stop blaming the victim. Hold rapists and abusers accountable for their behavior. Full stop. I'm not blaming the victim, but being invited by yourself to a hotel room/ apartment/house has certain presumptions. Unless the person accepting the invitation makes is clear thier intentions, there is a presumption by the person extending the invitation. Weather that is right or wrong, that is something different, but this is the societal norm. The instant anyone provides some forum of non consent indication and the other person didn't stop, they became an attacker. |
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Post by tamara68 on Dec 1, 2017 10:59:19 GMT -5
Watch the film 'Jagten'
I wasn't able to watch it all, convincing and scary. Terrifying to get in a situation like that
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Post by northstarmom on Dec 1, 2017 11:27:07 GMT -5
'”I’m not blaming the victim, but being invited by yourself to a hotel room/ apartment/house has certain presumptions. Unless the person accepting the invitation makes is clear thier intentions, there is a presumption by the person extending the invitation. Weather that is right or wrong, that is something different, but this is the societal norm.”
It would be different if these predators were clear about their intentions. However, they don’t say, “come to my hotel room so I can rape you.” They don’t even say an obvious come on like, “it’s getting late. Let’s have a drink in my room.” They also aren’t in a romantic situation in which if one invites a companion to one’s home or hotel room, anyone who’s not an unsophisticated teen would expect a sexual pass.
Example: when after having several dates with him and turning down a pass and following up a pass by requesting that he get std testing, the guy invited me for dinner at his place, I was not offended when he answered the door wearing a towel. I knew we had made a sex date.
if I had come over to rehearse a play we were in or to help me with his resume or to drop by mail that had accidentally been delivered to my house, I’d consider his actions to be insulting and unacceptable.
I’ve met alone with men friends to rehearse or work on projects. I’ve even let some close male friends spend the night in a guest room. None made a pass or acted like sex was what they expected.
While I think it’s unwise for people to venture into the hotel rooms of people of the opposite sex (or in some cases the same sex), I think that many do this not because they are fools but because of the way the other person has presented the invitation as being strictly business, and has acted previously in a way appropriate for a professional relationship.
I think a big problem is that some men think it’s normal to think of sexually assaulting any woman they are alone with. They don’t realize that such thoughts are abnormal. That’s why I believe that VP Mike Pence thinks it makes sense for him to never be alone with any woman except his wife. Apparently, he thinks it’s normal to not be able to control himself if he’s alone with a woman. Sex— forced sex - must be all that he thinks of when around women.
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Post by h on Dec 1, 2017 12:02:59 GMT -5
'”I’m not blaming the victim, but being invited by yourself to a hotel room/ apartment/house has certain presumptions. Unless the person accepting the invitation makes is clear thier intentions, there is a presumption by the person extending the invitation. Weather that is right or wrong, that is something different, but this is the societal norm.” It would be different if these predators were clear about their intentions. However, they don’t say, “come to my hotel room so I can rape you.” They don’t even say an obvious come on like, “it’s getting late. Let’s have a drink in my room.” They also aren’t in a romantic situation in which if one invites a companion to one’s home or hotel room, anyone who’s not an unsophisticated teen would expect a sexual pass. Example: when after having several dates with him and turning down a pass and following up a pass by requesting that he get std testing, the guy invited me for dinner at his place, I was not offended when he answered the door wearing a towel. I knew we had made a sex date. if I had come over to rehearse a play we were in or to help me with his resume or to drop by mail that had accidentally been delivered to my house, I’d consider his actions to be insulting and unacceptable. I’ve met alone with men friends to rehearse or work on projects. I’ve even let some close male friends spend the night in a guest room. None made a pass or acted like sex was what they expected. While I think it’s unwise for people to venture into the hotel rooms of people of the opposite sex (or in some cases the same sex), I think that many do this not because they are fools but because of the way the other person has presented the invitation as being strictly business, and has acted previously in a way appropriate for a professional relationship. I think a big problem is that some men think it’s normal to think of sexually assaulting any woman they are alone with. They don’t realize that such thoughts are abnormal. That’s why I believe that VP Mike Pence thinks it makes sense for him to never be alone with any woman except his wife. Apparently, he thinks it’s normal to not be able to control himself if he’s alone with a woman. Sex— forced sex - must be all that he thinks of when around women. I think it's more likely that Pence knows he's a prime target for an accusation because of his public and political life he's smart enough (or paranoid enough) not to risk even the opportunity for an accusation. I think it is a good idea for any person in today's world. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 1, 2017 12:18:12 GMT -5
Yea, that Mike Pence comment annoyed the hell out of me!
I've been a stay at home dad for 19 yrs. I've been doing homeschool for 11 yrs. I did childcare for 7 yrs. Lots of interaction with other woman!
What is the most annoying is the double standards. I would have woman drop their daughters and /or sons off at my house leaving them in my total care as they would play with my children. I would take their kids to the beach with me and my children and watch over them. We would meet in my driveway and exchange children. Yet there are/where woman who where taught to be totally against setting foot in my house-or me in theirs- because I am a man and they are a woman.
Decades of a spotless record of caring for other peoples children, of living a faithful marriage, of being a pillar in the community, strictly business and friendship, all part of raising children, and yet....afraid to be alone in the house or out by the pool as children are running around constantly! (Such thoughts would not even enter my mind--but apparently it would be on their mind, so who's the one having these impure thoughts in the first place?)
It was/is quite insulting to have a woman believe that I would not even be considering the consequences that would happen to my reputation in the home school community, the public school community, my church community, my neighborhood, etc....And yet I -my wife and my family- where okay with having women in the house . There was nothing to hide, and nothing to occur. What others made up or dreamed about was there own fault and problems. I know the truth.
More and more reason to end the entire home school and stay at home dad adventure. I also would prefer my next job to be working mostly with other men.
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Post by greatcoastal on Dec 1, 2017 12:27:45 GMT -5
My main hope: As all these rich/powerful/public/celebrity men face the music for their actions (*), that real change will happen soon for the working woman who is harassed by non-celebrity men, such as their low-level boss at a big box store, or small office, or what have you. If those women went to the press, do you think they would get front-page coverage? (*: my opinion is still on hold for Keillor.) 100% agreement, right there with ya Dan! Do you think episodes like this will ever get front page coverage? This hits home when it comes to discussing divorce, sexual abuse, double standards, and control. shrink4men.com/2011/08/16/man-awarded-852000-in-civil-court-after-ex-wife-falsely-accuses-him-of-sexual-abuse/ |
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