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Post by heathcliff on Jul 16, 2019 10:48:32 GMT -5
I hate the "talks". i don't want to guilt her or manipulate her into sex. If she doesn't want it, then I don't want it.
I wonder sometimes if I just picked the wrong woman. I knew i was not her type physically from shortly after we started dating. Emotionally we connected, but there was always a bit of a disconnect sexually.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2019 11:41:55 GMT -5
That's where I ended up too. After a number of "talks" (haven't had the talk in many years now) it started to feel like you were trying to talk someone into eating brussel sprouts that really just doesn't like brussel sprouts.
I have had one or two periods of thinking, "maybe she's having an affair" but it finally settled into my sexual brain that she just didn't think about sex. Zero, nada. No fantasies, no looking forward to a lazy morning of sleeping in and sex.
Having talks where you are working together to address a specific issue, improve the relationship, have a high EQ convo about "I feel that XXX is missing from our marriage. Those are all valid reasons to talk. BUT, after a while you realize the specific issue or two won't be addressed, your "meanness" or what other inappropriate label is attached to you to deflect the issue, just aren't going to result in changes. Boom, then you're at the leave or stay point. I've stayed and don't ever "talk". She's happy because the issue went away as far as she's concerned.
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Post by saarinista on Jul 16, 2019 18:24:48 GMT -5
I hate the "talks". i don't want to guilt her or manipulate her into sex. If she doesn't want it, then I don't want it. I wonder sometimes if I just picked the wrong woman. I knew i was not her type physically from shortly after we started dating. Emotionally we connected, but there was always a bit of a disconnect sexually. It's certainly very possible you picked the wrong woman. I knew there were issues with my spouse from the beginning, but I married him anyway because he had some good qualities, I wanted to be married and I figured I'd muscle my way through it. Also, at the beginning there was sex. Now there's not, and I don't even want it with him anymore. Interestingly, the lack of sex has enabled me to see that there were other mismatches from the beginning-stuff like very different communication styles, different senses of humor, different value systems, different levels of interest in sex, etc. etc.. Different can be good or bad. In our case, it just isn't working out. And nearly a decade without sex was the first big clue to me that it wasn't just our sex life that was dead, but the whole relationship is pretty much gone, except for a shared history. But I can remember the good parts. I don't need to stay married to remember those. The question is: what will I be shooting for going forward?
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Post by baza on Jul 17, 2019 3:23:19 GMT -5
It could well be that you "just picked the wrong woman" Brother heathcliff . That, or some other "why" could be in play here. But the material fact is - that for unknown reasons your marriage is an ILIASM deal - and you knowing "why" that might be will not alter that material fact that you have been sexually disenfranchised. Your call is whether you choose to remain in the situation or not .... and that's no easy matter to decide.
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Jul 17, 2019 9:18:48 GMT -5
We are fond of saying here, that we must choose what to do. Most of us immediately think, what to do about the relationship (Stay, leave, cheat). I know that was my thinking. But this mode of thought may be flawed. Why do we have to care about the relationship at all at this point? Or better, said, why put more energy into something that produces little to no return? Maybe a better way to think about what to do, is to remove yourself emotionally from the relationship and focus on you. Invest in you. Put the emotional energy into you. That hobby you've been thinking about? No better time than now. That new hairstyle you like. Why not give it a go. That destination you have been meaning to visit? Find out when you can go. And for the love of god, absolutely start an exercise routine. Whether its walking, hiking, running, body weight workouts or an expensive gym membership, or personal trainer. Do this fucking now. It will make you feel better about yourself. It will give you energy. And the confidence will feed on itself. Once the pounds start dropping, think about investing in a wardrobe. There is no better time than now to invest in you. And stop thinking about the relationship and what you can do to "change" or "fix" things, or "coping". Fuck that. Fuck "the talk". They dont care! You come across as needy. Needy is not attractive. So the call to action is this. All that emotional energy you are wasting on your situation, its put to better use investing in you. Only you are responsible for your well being and happiness. No one else. Get so busy building a life that sex becomes secondary or not even a factor. If you are a guy, start fixing shit around the house that you have been putting off. Get your finances in order. Have you paid off debt? Do you have a rainy day slush fund? How are you funding retirement? When was the last time you planned something fun with the kids? Picnic? Hiking? Camping? Cookout? Marshmellow roasting? Stargazing? Bowling? Movie night? Amusement park? And on and on. Put together a plan that gets you through the next 90 days. Before the 90 days is up, think about a self improvement plan that projects out to the next 12 months. Before the year is up, think about what the rest of your life looks like. And who knows, as you become a new you, the decision about "what to do" about the relationship may become self evident or no longer relevant. And dont come to ILIASM every day to read and commiserate. Get to a point where you come here to hold yourself accountable and contribute to the community. Somebody please kick out the soapbox from under me before I go on. "Get busy living, or get busy dying" -Andy Dufresne, Shawshank Redemption It could well be that you "just picked the wrong woman" Brother heathcliff . That, or some other "why" could be in play here. But the material fact is - that for unknown reasons your marriage is an ILIASM deal - and you knowing "why" that might be will not alter that material fact that you have been sexually disenfranchised. Your call is whether you choose to remain in the situation or not .... and that's no easy matter to decide.
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Post by workingonit on Jul 17, 2019 13:15:06 GMT -5
We are fond of saying here, that we must choose what to do. Most of us immediately think, what to do about the relationship (Stay, leave, cheat). I know that was my thinking. But this mode of thought may be flawed. Why do we have to care about the relationship at all at this point? Or better, said, why put more energy into something that produces little to no return? Maybe a better way to think about what to do, is to remove yourself emotionally from the relationship and focus on you. Invest in you. Put the emotional energy into you. That hobby you've been thinking about? No better time than now. That new hairstyle you like. Why not give it a go. That destination you have been meaning to visit? Find out when you can go. And for the love of god, absolutely start an exercise routine. Whether its walking, hiking, running, body weight workouts or an expensive gym membership, or personal trainer. Do this fucking now. It will make you feel better about yourself. It will give you energy. And the confidence will feed on itself. Once the pounds start dropping, think about investing in a wardrobe. There is no better time than now to invest in you. And stop thinking about the relationship and what you can do to "change" or "fix" things, or "coping". Fuck that. Fuck "the talk". They dont care! You come across as needy. Needy is not attractive. So the call to action is this. All that emotional energy you are wasting on your situation, its put to better use investing in you. Only you are responsible for your well being and happiness. No one else. Get so busy building a life that sex becomes secondary or not even a factor. If you are a guy, start fixing shit around the house that you have been putting off. Get your finances in order. Have you paid off debt? Do you have a rainy day slush fund? How are you funding retirement? When was the last time you planned something fun with the kids? Picnic? Hiking? Camping? Cookout? Marshmellow roasting? Stargazing? Bowling? Movie night? Amusement park? And on and on. Put together a plan that gets you through the next 90 days. Before the 90 days is up, think about a self improvement plan that projects out to the next 12 months. Before the year is up, think about what the rest of your life looks like. And who knows, as you become a new you, the decision about "what to do" about the relationship may become self evident or no longer relevant. And dont come to ILIASM every day to read and commiserate. Get to a point where you come here to hold yourself accountable and contribute to the community. Somebody please kick out the soapbox from under me before I go on. "Get busy living, or get busy dying" -Andy Dufresne, Shawshank Redemption It could well be that you "just picked the wrong woman" Brother heathcliff . That, or some other "why" could be in play here. But the material fact is - that for unknown reasons your marriage is an ILIASM deal - and you knowing "why" that might be will not alter that material fact that you have been sexually disenfranchised. Your call is whether you choose to remain in the situation or not .... and that's no easy matter to decide. ❤❤❤❤❤ Greatest post ever. Sending this to myself so I can read it daily for awhile.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 7, 2019 22:56:56 GMT -5
My question is: has anyone in a sexless marriage ever gotten the vibe that their spouse is cheating on them? Right before the dry spell started was probably as sexually active as we had been since we got married. We were experimenting a little with fantasies, which she seemed to like a lot, which makes the dry spell seem stranger. There are periodic gaps in her days (multi-hour shopping trips, working late or after work appointments that seem to happen more frequently than they should) that I don't push her about, but start to add up.
Not sure what I do next.
No. I did not get that vibe. In hindsight I should have. She was indeed cheating on me, and had left enough clues for even an idiot to catch her. I somehow missed it. Missing time. Large blocks of it - when I was available to hang out with her. Starting absurd fights with me - like about dirtying the dishes when I cooked dinner for her. Needing "space" - though she only worked part time, 2 days a week, and I did almost all the chores and kids when I was home, in addition to my dayjob. Evenings texting in my presence and taking phone calls on the porch. Getting up in the morning early to go on work outings with one of her work colleagues on the weekend. Arranging a family outing with her same work colleague and his wife, with our kids. Asking about an open relationship and whether that would be so bad. Asking specifically what I thought about an open relationship with her work colleague. Getting suddenly ridiculously crazy jealous about me going out with male friends who she did not know, and outright accusing me of having an affair. Telling me it would be fine if I had an affair. Getting wicked roaring sloppy drunk at home, for no reason.
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Post by baza on Aug 8, 2019 0:40:28 GMT -5
Adding to Brother Apocrypha said - with a variant. In my deal there was also missing time, absurd fights, unexplained absences, secrecy etc. All classic signs of cheating going on. But the affair my missus was having was with the slot machines, not a bloke. The point being, that the "why" may have been different, but the outcome was the same.
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Post by flashjohn on Aug 8, 2019 12:25:25 GMT -5
I hate the "talks". i don't want to guilt her or manipulate her into sex. If she doesn't want it, then I don't want it. I wonder sometimes if I just picked the wrong woman. I knew i was not her type physically from shortly after we started dating. Emotionally we connected, but there was always a bit of a disconnect sexually. When my refuser would not fuck on the wedding night, I knew she was the wrong woman. I did not follow my instinct to pack up, get on a plane, and go right back home.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 12:31:24 GMT -5
The hell of it is that, sometimes, you wonder how much of your own behavior created this "wrong" person. Were they wrong all along? Did the pressure for sex and intimacy drive them deeper into their shell? Did their own feelings of not being able to live up to your sexpectations contribute? Yup, yup.
I'm not advocating endless why chasing but it helps to let go of resentments when you first understand yourself, then seek to understand your partner, and the how the dynamic between the two of you works.
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 8, 2019 13:11:16 GMT -5
it finally settled into my sexual brain that she just didn't think about sex. Zero, nada. No fantasies, no looking forward to a lazy morning of sleeping in and sex. Having talks where you are working together to address a specific issue, improve the relationship, have a high EQ convo about "I feel that XXX is missing from our marriage. Those are all valid reasons to talk. BUT, after a while you realize the specific issue or two won't be addressed, your "meanness" or what other inappropriate label is attached to you to deflect the issue, just aren't going to result in changes. Boom, then you're at the leave or stay point. I've stayed and don't ever "talk". She's happy because the issue went away as far as she's concerned [...] The hell of it is that, sometimes, you wonder how much of your own behavior created this "wrong" person. Were they wrong all along? Did the pressure for sex and intimacy drive them deeper into their shell? Did their own feelings of not being able to live up to your sexpectations contribute? Yup, yup. I'm not advocating endless why chasing but it helps to let go of resentments when you first understand yourself, then seek to understand your partner, and the how the dynamic between the two of you works. The thinking that finally released me: Here's what I observed with my wife, and in many women I have dated who also were in sexually averse marriages in which they themselves were sexually averse. My wife's sexual disconnection and celibacy and lack of will to address it existed in the context of her marriage to me.Thought experiment - a question I asked in real life - two weeks after we'd decided to split but still lived together. I asked her, "So is that it? Are you relieved, as a positive thing, that you never have to have sex again?" I wasn't even trying to be mean. It was posed with curiosity. I wanted all of this to be worth something to at least one of us. And then I saw her look. She saw me seeing it - we're married after all. Can't hide subtleties like that - much easier with the Big Lies. She was thinking about all kinds of sex. Just not with me. Her personals ad was already up. Same with later, when we split for real. Literally the day after we decided, that personals ad was up. And she was all across the dating sites. Which she's entitled to do, but it doesn't really match up with her "I'm just an old cold fish" narrative. And back during the fighting about it days, I remember her saying "Look, I'M ALSO TRAPPED in a sexless marriage!" Instead of hearing it - really hearing what she didn't even realize she was saying - I blamed her. If I'd listened to what she had just revealed, I'd have saved another several years of futile effort. Almost none of these people are averse to sex. They are averse to sex with their existing partner, because of the way they feel about that partner or because of the way they feel about their married circumstance with that partner. They've lost respect, or found them to be uninteresting, or perceived something unsafe, or posed them in the role of their own family drama - maybe seeing you as a father/mother, evokes something from their own past that they have not resolved. Whatever it is, and however justified or not - their conception has changed to not include you as a viable sexual partner, though other relations may be possible. Whatever it is - there is a reason. Maybe she said "yes" when she wasn't actually onboard. And if they are still "committed to the marriage" so to speak, the adaptation then is to simply avoid the sex and discussion about it. Think of someone, anyone - who you don't see as a viable sexual partner. Now, try to change your mind. Kind of hard to do. So, to your final point - I totally agree. It's probably helpful to afford some grace to a person who is trapped as you are in an unhappy situation. She probably sees herself as a martyr, choosing the celibacy over splitting the family and home, and likely wishes you'd just shut up about it. But one thing's certain - she likely doesn't see you as a candidate for a sexual partner. If you split, her threshold for saying "Yes" will drop pretty low with someone new, who lacks whatever the baggage or circumstance is that is attached to you. When I feel I need to escape the rage I infrequently feel for her betrayal (because I do still have to interact with the mother of my children) and her awful behaviour, I try to imagine what I'd be like if I married a woman who I didn't want to marry. Maybe I'd not be the best version of myself either.
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Post by northstarmom on Aug 8, 2019 13:28:21 GMT -5
Heathcliff said: “I wonder sometimes if I just picked the wrong woman. I knew i was not her type physically from shortly after we started dating. Emotionally we connected, but there was always a bit of a disconnect sexually.”
Yes, you picked the wrong woman. She’d be a great friend but isn’t the right pick for your wife.
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Post by orangepeel on Aug 13, 2019 12:35:56 GMT -5
That's where I ended up too. After a number of "talks" (haven't had the talk in many years now) it started to feel like you were trying to talk someone into eating brussel sprouts that really just doesn't like brussel sprouts. I have had one or two periods of thinking, "maybe she's having an affair" but it finally settled into my sexual brain that she just didn't think about sex. Zero, nada. No fantasies, no looking forward to a lazy morning of sleeping in and sex. Having talks where you are working together to address a specific issue, improve the relationship, have a high EQ convo about "I feel that XXX is missing from our marriage. Those are all valid reasons to talk. BUT, after a while you realize the specific issue or two won't be addressed, your "meanness" or what other inappropriate label is attached to you to deflect the issue, just aren't going to result in changes. Boom, then you're at the leave or stay point. I've stayed and don't ever "talk". She's happy because the issue went away as far as she's concerned. That could quite literally be me. You’re not me, are you?
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Post by orangepeel on Aug 13, 2019 12:37:45 GMT -5
I hate the "talks". i don't want to guilt her or manipulate her into sex. If she doesn't want it, then I don't want it. I wonder sometimes if I just picked the wrong woman. I knew i was not her type physically from shortly after we started dating. Emotionally we connected, but there was always a bit of a disconnect sexually. It's certainly very possible you picked the wrong woman. I knew there were issues with my spouse from the beginning, but I married him anyway because he had some good qualities, I wanted to be married and I figured I'd muscle my way through it. Also, at the beginning there was sex. Now there's not, and I don't even want it with him anymore. Interestingly, the lack of sex has enabled me to see that there were other mismatches from the beginning-stuff like very different communication styles, different senses of humor, different value systems, different levels of interest in sex, etc. etc.. Different can be good or bad. In our case, it just isn't working out. And nearly a decade without sex was the first big clue to me that it wasn't just our sex life that was dead, but the whole relationship is pretty much gone, except for a shared history. But I can remember the good parts. I don't need to stay married to remember those. The question is: what will I be shooting for going forward? That could quite literally be me. You’re not me, are you?
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Post by saarinista on Aug 15, 2019 15:47:51 GMT -5
It's certainly very possible you picked the wrong woman. I knew there were issues with my spouse from the beginning, but I married him anyway because he had some good qualities, I wanted to be married and I figured I'd muscle my way through it. Also, at the beginning there was sex. Now there's not, and I don't even want it with him anymore. Interestingly, the lack of sex has enabled me to see that there were other mismatches from the beginning-stuff like very different communication styles, different senses of humor, different value systems, different levels of interest in sex, etc. etc.. Different can be good or bad. In our case, it just isn't working out. And nearly a decade without sex was the first big clue to me that it wasn't just our sex life that was dead, but the whole relationship is pretty much gone, except for a shared history. But I can remember the good parts. I don't need to stay married to remember those. The question is: what will I be shooting for going forward? That could quite literally be me. You’re not me, are you? Who, me? Am I you? 🤔😏😁
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