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Post by orangepeel on Aug 15, 2019 18:14:40 GMT -5
Well in one vital sense, we ILIASMers are all one.
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Post by heathcliff on Aug 18, 2019 7:57:44 GMT -5
I hate the "talks". i don't want to guilt her or manipulate her into sex. If she doesn't want it, then I don't want it. I wonder sometimes if I just picked the wrong woman. I knew i was not her type physically from shortly after we started dating. Emotionally we connected, but there was always a bit of a disconnect sexually. Thank you everyone for the thoughts. I have definitely appreciated the thoughts of posters who point out that she may think she has married the wrong man. I have reflected on this for a while, as I am sure most of you have with your own situations. Walking away is very difficult for a lot of reasons for both of us. I am going to go in a weird direction, but I am interested in other people's thoughts.
Let me start with: I think monogamy is fucked up. The idea that in our 20's we have to choose a single person that we can love and share the rest of our life with AND will satisfy us sexually for our entire lives is crazy, and puts incredible stress on a relationship. I know we all want the relationship where we hold hands all the time while staring deeply into each other's eyes, and only think about the other person and are each other's perfect match, but that is an impossible standard that results in disappointment and feelings of rejection. Why not just disconnect sex from the relationship? In my opinion, monogamy is a relic from ancient times so that a man would know the paternity of his mate's children and women wouldn't have their mates fathering 20 kids by 10 different women. It is an anachronism in a modern world of birth control where sex is much more frequently for pleasure than pro-creative. Sex should be fun, and people should be able to have external physical relationships while still maintaining a core emotional relationship that is the foundation of a marriage. While she doesn't know it, or accept it yet, I know my wife and I would be happier if we were not monogamous.
As I said in the post above, I know I am not her type sexually. While she and I are both relatively successful white collar professionals, I know she is physically attracted to blue collar alpha male types. She has told me this, and we even fantasized and role-played about her in various situations with alpha male types. Even when we recently had sex for the first time in 4 years, she was fantasizing about a man like that fucking her. She is turned on by the tough guy, bad boy who lets everyone know that not only does he have the biggest johnson in the room, but that he knows how to use it. That is just not who I am. She is self-aware enough to know she wouldn't want to be in a relationship with a guy like that, but her body wants what it wants. She has also told me she is bi-curious, although that comes and goes. That fantasy usually involves her and another woman with an alpha male type. She is so old fashioned and constricted by social norms that she is unwilling to act on any of these fantasies even though I have told her she can.
She is NOT self-aware enough to realize that fighting these urges are making her angry and resentful, and that she is taking it out on me by withholding sex. I get there are risks involved in an open relationship, but spoiler alert, I already know she is not with me for the sex since we aren't having any. I also feel like the chance of her acting on an impulse and then confusing the sexual satisfaction with emotional attachment is much higher if it happens in a situation where she is cheating than in one where she is an open relationship and she is just looking for a sexual outlet. I am fine with her exploring sexually, but she needs to reset the fidelity expectations in our relationship if that is what she needs. Or, alternatively, she realizes that sex just isn't that important to her, in which case I should still be free to play.
I have had a version of this talk with her in the last few months, but she was unable to make a decision. I get that it is a big decision and I am giving her some time, so we will see what happens.
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Post by worksforme2 on Aug 18, 2019 8:25:27 GMT -5
Be careful what you ask for heathcliff. I had a similar talk with my X. When I told her I could not go on in a SM she replied she would not go along with me having a FWB or random partners. The end result for us was divorce. Apocrypha had an open marriage for a while. He outlined a # of difficulties brought about as a result. You might want to read his theme or ask him some questions for a 1st hand experience. From what I have read on open marriages it requires a great deal of trust in and love for your spouse to make it work.
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Post by baza on Aug 18, 2019 21:44:33 GMT -5
Patially quoting you here Brother heathcliff - " .... I have had a version of this talk with her in the last few months, but she was unable to make a decision. I get that it is a big decision and I am giving her some time, so we will see what happens" Taken in context with your other posts, it looks very much like your missus HAS made a decision. To maintain the status quo. However, it is likely not going to be in her best longer term interests to straight up tell you that lest there be some fall out from doing so. It is likely that it IS in her longer term best interests to keep you "why chasing".
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Post by Apocrypha on Aug 18, 2019 22:32:15 GMT -5
She is NOT self-aware enough to realize that fighting these urges are making her angry and resentful, and that she is taking it out on me by withholding sex. I get there are risks involved in an open relationship, but spoiler alert, I already know she is not with me for the sex since we aren't having any. I also feel like the chance of her acting on an impulse and then confusing the sexual satisfaction with emotional attachment is much higher if it happens in a situation where she is cheating than in one where she is an open relationship and she is just looking for a sexual outlet. I am fine with her exploring sexually, but she needs to reset the fidelity expectations in our relationship if that is what she needs. Or, alternatively, she realizes that sex just isn't that important to her, in which case I should still be free to play.
I have had a version of this talk with her in the last few months, but she was unable to make a decision. I get that it is a big decision and I am giving her some time, so we will see what happens.
The approach you are discussing is one that I and Mrs Apocrypha took for around 3-4 years, with a vaguely similar rationale, and evolving and testing different configurations. Also, because I live in a major city and certain coincidental personal contacts, I had a fair amount of experience visiting the "consensual non-monogamy" community and venues, as well as an inside "ear" to its habits and realistic norms - so I got to see all kinds of patterns in the many, many different configurations of this, beyond my own. We can discuss details if you like, to see if it's relevant experience to your situation. I pulled the plug on it some 4 or 5 years ago now, and had some time to reflect on what may be common flawed assumptions and one productive gambit to drive things to a resolution: 1. a) You think her withholding sex from you is a kind of mistake - a crossed wire - that doesn't actually reflect the way she feels about you as a person. In my experience, the withholding of sex is an accurate reflection of how one feels about one's partner almost every time. Usually the disconnection happened sometime a while back (and possible on the wedding day, if they never wanted to get married). And it's usually severe - significant enough to override her sex drive. That doesn't mean she isn't invested in the household you two have built or feel an intimate affinity. It's hard to give that up. But a commitment to celibacy is a sober endeavor not to be taken lightly or inflicted accidentally. b) Even if she agrees to the open relationship (on both sides), you are still left with the original problem - your relationship with her, and the fact that she does not see you as a viable partner, has significant implications for your self-esteem. When I agreed to open mine, it was pinned to the idea that my partner and I would ALSO have an improved sexual relationship (because my partner was suddenly feeling sexual, she said). It worked for a while but not for the reasons I thought, and then it did not work at all. It doesn't matter how many girlfriends you get, the one person you are married to, doesn't want you that way because of the way she sees you, or sees being married to you. It's really unlikely the girlfriends will make her want you more. c) Open relationships like your own deal favour women 100-1. You have a lot of competitors out there who also want a casual and low-responsibility FWB. Women who want that in this type of deal, WAY fewer. She can likely snap her finger in a Starbucks lineup, whereas you will likely need to put a LOT of work into it, and also have her support and even help in this. It's an asymmetry in what tends to be attractive - a lot of women even in the "community" and singles - tend to be put off by guys who are in a committed relationship and looking elsewhere. They tend to be more assured when the woman in the pair is vouching for and promoting her husband (who also needs to be pretty good looking, to compete with the thousands of single guys who also want a casual fling). d) Open relationship deals eventually get tied into complicated pinky pacts in which you try to balance everyone's needs and tolerances. It's an exponential amount of complication, and if feelings arise where the marriage starts to strain and you are at risk of losing your paramour - you can end up overextending and keeping the dance going long past the point where you realize it isn't working at home. You might think it's easy to just call it off then, but when you realize the amount of time and effort it takes for a guy to find a suitable partner and situation, it might set you back 6 months or more (meanwhile your celibate wife can snap her finger and have a lineup of guys willing to drink her bathwater, site unseen). And also, spouses who really aren't into you rooting other people have a habit of passive-aggressiveness - making it difficult, or making the cost of participating too high, despite keeping up the appearance of playing ball. 2. You can have emotional attachment within an open relationship just as much as with cheating. It doesn't mean you will leave your partner. You can't actually control whether or not you will feel something - so there's no immunization from that. 3. As Baz said, the status quo you are in signals that she has made her decision. You have not taken away the option of "do nothing" for her. The open relationship gambit
With all that said, there's something that I think is productive about it (jurisdiction dependent- check infidelity and abandonment laws, and keep it verbal, not in writing that can be forwarded). The open relationship gambit is a crucible, burning away the fat and getting down to the core of the matter, or at least down to the core of what will happen next. If your partner doesn't want to have sex with you, then you offer to open it to have sex with someone else. You don't cheat. ? You make it plain that you are preparing for a date and then ask her how involved she wants to be in picking your partner. Is this a thing you'll do together? Now, the choice to do nothing has a consequence, and you've just timeboxed her filibuster. She has to pick. If she doesn't love you boffing someone else, then she's going to likely simply separate. At the very least, she's going to need to seriously consider her choices and feelings, along with the cost. It's not going to be a thing where you two are keeping up appearances with each other. That's the point where most people tend to take things seriously. That's a game changer. BTW, - simply talking about it with a spouse often ends up going sideways when a spouse who has a free ticket -takes the conversation as justification to cheat anyway (to not share with her partner what her own intention is). That's usually an unrecoverable error, in that context.
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Post by heathcliff on Aug 27, 2019 11:39:50 GMT -5
I have been thinking about the two replies for a while, and started this post a few times.
My approach to this is that if she leaves then she leaves. That is an acceptable outcome for me. I look at this more as an opportunity cost. I am confident that I could find other partners if we had an open relationship. I had a woman flirt with me for over an hour last night at my kid's practice. If I am going to pass up other opportunities for sex, then I should get something in return.
If I am being completely honest with myself, I am somewhat indifferent about having sex with my wife. I would rather not get divorced at this point in my life, but I am not that excited about celibacy either. The open marriage is a way for her to get out of her system whatever she wants to get out of her system and decide whether she wants to be a wife, leave me, or play the field and just live the lifestyle our two healthy incomes allows for her. Or maybe she just doesn't like sex, which is fine too. If the answer is that she wants variety or just doesn't want sex, then let's both be free from the shackles of monogamy. I am fine with any of these outcomes.
On the other hand, if withholding sex is just some messed up mind game she has been playing for 20 years, then let's shut this marriage down. I am willing to tolerate a lot, and am pretty flexible about what a marriage can be, but if her idea of marriage is that she has the right to inflict emotional pain on me then we should put a stop to it.
I have put up with it for the last 5 years because both our careers were going well and our kids were at a point that I didn't want to rock the boat. Now I am ok taking some risks.
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Post by Handy on Aug 27, 2019 13:39:50 GMT -5
heathcliff, women want to be likes so if a woman flirts with you, it doesn't mean she wants to be sexual with you. Most just want to be "friends" without benefits. OTH, it is good that you can establish good relationships with men and women.
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Post by heathcliff on Aug 27, 2019 15:12:44 GMT -5
heathcliff , women want to be likes so if a woman flirts with you, it doesn't mean she wants to be sexual with you. Most just want to be "friends" without benefits. OTH, it is good that you can establish good relationships with men and women. Are you saying that I will be celibate if I am not with my wife? Thanks for the support.
I don't consider myself a stud by any means and I have never been looking to cheat, but I have still turned down sex with other women several times over the last few years. People can read signals in a relationship. My wife gives off a vibe that she is cold to me, and other women see it.
After 40, the math starts to flip pretty quickly in favor of men, especially those men that aren't chasing women 10+ years their junior. That is not meant to be a sexist statement, it just reflects math. I am in decent shape, exercise regularly, and am reasonably successful. I think I would do OK if I went back on the "market". Even if I am wildly inflating my own potential, it would be a terrible idea to stay in a SM because I was afraid I would strike out with women post marriage.
Divorce is not my first choice, but it has to be an option for anyone in a SM. As importantly, the spouse has to know that it is an option.
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Post by Handy on Aug 27, 2019 16:29:31 GMT -5
heathcliff Are you saying that I will be celibate if I am not with my wife? Thanks for the support.
I don't consider myself a stud by any means and I have never been looking to cheat, but I have still turned down sex with other women several times over the last few years. People can read signals in a relationship. I never intended to say you couldn't find a FWB. I was just saying that some women want to be liked and they flirt some to be liked but won't go any further, so do not take flirting as a sign a woman wants to be sexual with you. If more than flirting happens, then go from there. Me, I have never had any woman overtly want to be sexual with me while I was married. What has happened, flirting=yes, but that was mostly because she wanted something fixed or looked at to determine the next step to either fix something that wasn't working correctly or to determine if she needed to buy a new item. heathcliff , I read this and other relationship forums and many of the women in sexless marriages say they will not cheat on their husband. They want sex but say married men are off limits. Now if these women are saying one thing and willing to have sex with the right married man, then that is another thing I would have to adjust my thinking and decide which of the two choices is most likely to happen, based on each woman and the current circumstances. I know FWB's happen because some members are in serious relationships with each other. My guess is it happens less in real life with the general population. Then again maybe I am tone deaf when it comes to women willing to have more than a guy friend, based on what he can do for her and she can still avoid anything physically that involves more than a quick hug.
If there has any situations where I missed the "she might want more than ____________ and I missed it, please let me know about the situation.
OK, a long time ago on another forum, I did have a woman that wanted to "sext" with me but I declined because I was of the mind, that not being able to meet in person, the sexting was just something to get worked up and I would have to deal with the results alone. I also wanted to avoid anything that could blow up in my face and cause more problems. I was concerned she might be a "bunny boiler" because I was sort of new to that forum.
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Post by heathcliff on Aug 28, 2019 15:15:37 GMT -5
heathcliff Are you saying that I will be celibate if I am not with my wife? Thanks for the support.
I don't consider myself a stud by any means and I have never been looking to cheat, but I have still turned down sex with other women several times over the last few years. People can read signals in a relationship. I never intended to say you couldn't find a FWB. I was just saying that some women want to be liked and they flirt some to be liked but won't go any further, so do not take flirting as a sign a woman wants to be sexual with you. If more than flirting happens, then go from there. Me, I have never had any woman overtly want to be sexual with me while I was married. What has happened, flirting=yes, but that was mostly because she wanted something fixed or looked at to determine the next step to either fix something that wasn't working correctly or to determine if she needed to buy a new item. heathcliff , I read this and other relationship forums and many of the women in sexless marriages say they will not cheat on their husband. They want sex but say married men are off limits. Now if these women are saying one thing and willing to have sex with the right married man, then that is another thing I would have to adjust my thinking and decide which of the two choices is most likely to happen, based on each woman and the current circumstances. I know FWB's happen because some members are in serious relationships with each other. My guess is it happens less in real life with the general population. Then again maybe I am tone deaf when it comes to women willing to have more than a guy friend, based on what he can do for her and she can still avoid anything physically that involves more than a quick hug.
If there has any situations where I missed the "she might want more than ____________ and I missed it, please let me know about the situation.
OK, a long time ago on another forum, I did have a woman that wanted to "sext" with me but I declined because I was of the mind, that not being able to meet in person, the sexting was just something to get worked up and I would have to deal with the results alone. I also wanted to avoid anything that could blow up in my face and cause more problems. I was concerned she might be a "bunny boiler" because I was sort of new to that forum.
I don't know that this forum is 100% indicative of the real world. There are a lot of lonely women in unhappy relationships, and they can see the signals of other lonely people in similar relationships. There are also single women that just want a fun, no strings relationship, especially if they are older, and a married man provides that opportunity. I suspect some of that flirting that you experienced had the potential for more if you had responded.
It is a longer discussion, but I think monogamy is the main problem with a huge percentage of marriages, and if couples could get past this silly and unrealistic expectation, I think marriages would be much happier overall.
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Post by Handy on Aug 28, 2019 16:31:29 GMT -5
heathcliff , I will admit to missing signals. OTH my mode of operation is to not put too much pressure on a woman that is being friendly. Last evening, I was discussing lonely or screwed up relationships with a woman. She boldly said to me "you are married" in a way that indicated I was off limits to any woman except my W. This and another woman my age knows about my marriage and both have the opinion that married men are a no-go situation for them. Just as women want to feel safe and secure and a deep trust in the other person, in any long term relationship, I too want a no-drama relationship with anyone I am friends with. I an not going to trust just anyone, so that might take a few potential friends /more than friends, off of my radar. I haven't asked any woman if she is lonely or wants more from life because I think that would back-fire. I have asked a few women if they could have anything that did not involve money, what would it be. So far I have gotten they wished they had more energy and fewer age related issues. I might have had some interest from women but I sensed more indicators of an expensive life style than the woman wanting something like companionship, romance or any similar activity. I heard a story about what sounded like a lucky guy. He would ask 10 to 20 women if they were interested in something risky or somewhat sexual. His theory was "is you ask enough women, 1 out of the 20 will say yes, maybe not the first time but they eventually will." I am not willing to garner that type of reputation.
I an just curious, how much time and money are you willing to invest in a potential FWB search and how mush will you invest after you find a FWB? I read on an affair forum, one guy spends about $500 a month on all of his FWB type activities.
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Post by 2019change on Aug 28, 2019 17:13:30 GMT -5
Everyone has to considered that their spouse is or has cheated on them. Most people try and find a excuse that is a lot less soul destroying first, they want to think their spouse is asexual and looks for medical,mental,gay, emotional issues first. It's probably best to think all are true because in the end it really doesn't matter. You're in a sexless marriage and that's not likely to change so all you can do is decide what YOU are going to do, stay, leave, find an affair partner, masturbate, find a hobby to take your mind off it. You have to make the choice what's best for YOU and some may think it's selfish but that choice must be your alone and your partner either goes along with it or leaves.
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Post by heathcliff on Apr 23, 2021 10:14:27 GMT -5
I have been doing some detective work (browser history, looking for evidence of online email accounts, cell phone bills) and I can come up with no evidence of her cheating on me. The gaps in the day are the only thing that I have noticed, but she may just be shopping like she claims to be. I have told her that she can do whatever she wants (open marriage to no sex), but she is evasive. There is a little bit of blaming it on me, but when I try to pin her down on what she wants, she will not give me a straight answer.
I think power is part of why she withheld sex, and when I stopped caring, she lost that power and I know she did not like it. Now that I have brought it up again, she thinks she has power, which she she would effectively surrender if she told me she just wasn't into sex. That would be giving up the game for her, and she won't do it. I may have to for both of us.
I have reached a point where I understand if she doesn't want to have sex with me, that is her choice to make, but she has to tell me that.
A few months ago, I found out that my wife had cheated on me back in 2018 and 2019. She left her browser open on her iPad one morning, and went into the shower. I was too lazy to get mine, so i picked hers up to surf the web, and noticed that there was an email account open on yahoo. i went into it. i had never seen this personal account of hers. Most of it was just spam, but i scrolled back to 2019 and there were a few emails from a man I know a little. I went into the sent folder, and there were a lot of emails from her to him. I didn't have time to read them all before I heard her turn off the shower.
Based on what I read, the affair started in 2018, and went through 2019, into 2020, although it was slowing down in the last few months. I didn't have time to read all of the emails. Maybe it is less an affair and more a booty call. It looks like he had cut down their meetings to once every few weeks by the time the pandemic hit, and then it ended. She had wanted to meet more often, and she was clearly been infatuated with him although the relationship appears to be purely sexual. Some of her emails to him near the end were almost desperate to meet him. She had started emailing him recently as our vaccination appointments approached.
Many of the emails were graphic and detailed, and there were some pictures. It was clear to me in what I read that she wanted an aggressive, alpha male lover, and she loved the sex with him. He is very well endowed, which she seemed to enjoy quite a bit. It was more than that though. She liked that he was so dominant with her. It was clearly a very different sexual experience from what she had with me. A woman wants what she wants, and it is clear from the emails that sexually, this is what my wife wants.
I would have expected to be emotionally devastated, but I was surprisingly not that hurt by it. I have reached the point mentally where I know it is very unlikely we will stay together long term, and I am open to something on the side, so why should I be upset if she feels the same way? The part I am struggling with is how turned on I am by her affair with this man, and maybe that is why I am not that emotionally hurt by it. Have years of mind games by her made me this way? That I get sexual gratification from the idea of her having sex with another man, especially a man like this? I can't stop picturing the two of them together in some of the ways that my wife describes in her emails.
I don't have the password to the account, but she leaves the browser open sometimes so I have been able to get back in a couple of times although I don't want her to see me reading her iPad so I have not made much more progress on the emails since that first time. I am reluctant to confront her about these emails, particularly given how long I have known about them. It is possible she knows I looked at them too. Given how passive aggressive we are with everything in our relationship, I am not sure that coming clean with this is a good idea. While our marriage is on cruise control in a weird place, I don't want to blow it up right now.
I just dumped this here because I can't talk to anyone about this. I don't know what to think about it.
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Post by northstarmom on Apr 23, 2021 10:21:21 GMT -5
“ I have reached a point where I understand if she doesn't want to have sex with me, that is her choice to make, but she has to tell me that. ”
She is answering with her actions. Believe her. Doesn’t matter if she is having an affair. She is not a romantic partner with you. My ex did what your wife is doing. Ended up he was having an affair. But bottom line was I deserved — and got- a partner who sexually desired me. Have been divorced now for 8 years. Wish I’d divorced earlier instead of waiting for my ex to verbally state he didn’t sexually want me. He never said that. I’d still be married if I’d kept waiting for that.
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Post by Handy on Apr 23, 2021 10:29:10 GMT -5
heathcliff, Affairs since 2018, interesting post, especially after reading your older posts. It that happened to me, I would transfer all of the affair emails to an account I owned and then print them out and hand the print outs to her. You have enough information to make choices and demand choices from your W.
Northstarmom has what I call is "good advice."
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