fish
Junior Member
Posts: 29 
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by fish on Jan 15, 2020 5:37:44 GMT -5
Been lurking on here for a long time so thought it was time to post.
I'm 51, been married 17 years, 2 teenage children. My wife to be moved in with me very rapidly when we started dating and gave up her job. She had the worst temper ever, hit me quite often, and had jealousy problems, but I was over 30, she wanted children, I desperately wanted children, she claimed to like everything that I did and I thought we could make it work. The sex was regular to start with and she was keen to try new things. I'm bisexual and she was always excited by my fantasies. We went for some couples counselling and she stormed out. We got married.
She shut down any discussion of fantasies when we got married, but at least there was regular sex... until our first child was born. Then the excuses started. Her temper ramped up a notch, and she was post-natally depressed. I was working longer hours to support a family, and it was hell, fights over everything, and absolutely no sex. Often screamed at me that I cared more about work than her, and I absolutely didn't but I had to work. Common story.
We had sex a few times a year, she treated me like the enemy and nothing I did was good enough. I was utterly miserable but had young children and the thought of leaving didn't even cross my mind, and I blamed myself for getting no sex, and thought I was a complete failure and everyone else was having a great sex life. About 5 years ago I found the term 'sexless marriage' online and read about it. I had 'the chat' and my wife seemed cold and uninterested, and said that she couldn't give me any more sex. I read books and kept talking to her, and eventually we did (sort of) talk about it, and she said she would try harder. This went around in circles numerous times - the chat, sex once or twice, then excuses, and repeat. Ultimately nothing changed.
Then a younger woman that I vaguely knew started showing some interest in me. We chatted online and of course it was exciting, she told me that she fancied me, and wanted to cheat on her husband with me. I got frightened because I knew it could get sexual very quickly and bottled out after about a week and told her I couldn't talk any more, we never even met up. I decided to tell my wife, partly out of guilt, and partly because I thought it would be a wake-up call for her that our marriage was in trouble. One week of complete hell for me, but we went for counselling, and for 6 weeks resumed a normal sex life. The counselling came to nothing, the sex stopped with the usual excuses again, it was just reactive desire.
So it's been 16 years of almost nil sex for me. I have thought about divorce constantly for the last 4 years, making plans, then backing down. Even decided to definitely get divorced twice, sat down to talk to my wife, and bottled out. I'm afraid of how it will affect the children, I'm afraid of the financial hit I will take as she doesn't work, I'm afraid that it is just a massive upheaval in my life, and of course I'm afraid that I will regret it later when I have lost my house, family and wife.
I don't have any sexual desire towards my wife now. I gave trying to talk to her about our sex life almost a year ago, and stopped trying to initiate at the same time. We haven't had sex in a year, or even much physical contact.
Every time I think of divorce I can see myself being infinitely happier, maybe getting some sex at last, having my freedom, but then I wonder if I am just being selfish and only thinking of myself, and worry how it will affect everyone else. I cannot see a future with my wife, and if I stay with her I will always be thinking about what life could have been like. I'm a very fit slim 51 year old professional, I look after myself, and I don't think I would have any trouble finding sex if I want it, although if I got divorced I would run a mile from any future relationship and would rather just be on my own.
i am really struggling justifying a divorce and moving forward.
Any thoughts welcome.
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Post by baza on Jan 15, 2020 6:39:29 GMT -5
There was a poll put up in October 2019 which invited members - who had been out of their ILIASM deal for at least a year - this question - - "Are you happier than you were a year ago ?" Ninety plus percent of the respondents said "yes". Really, your chances of being in a worse situation after you get out are not high. Anyway Brother fish , my usual suggestion(s) - See a lawyer in your jurisdiction to establish how a divorce would theoretically shake out for you. Within those legal parameters, start constructing a theoretical exit strategy (a plan for your life after ILIASM) Shore up your support network. Research everything you can concerning helping your kids through such an event. After you've done this work, and established some factual information, you will be in a position to make a fully informed choice about what you are going to choose to do. What you choose is on you .... but presupposing you make the choice that is in your longer term best interests, you can't go too far wrong. |
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fish
Junior Member
Posts: 29
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by fish on Jan 15, 2020 8:35:29 GMT -5
Thanks baza.
My wife did a good job of destroying my social life, although I actively let it happen. Making an effort now to make new friends, although it's not as easy as it used to be at 51! I don't really have family so no support there. If I divorce I will be mostly on my own to start with, but I have plenty of interests and hobbies so am not too frightened about being able to socialise and meet new people, I'm not too shy, and I'm happy with my own company anyway.
Was thinking of going to see a solicitor to find out how bad it is. Getting out of the house without her knowing what I am up to is not easy though.
Kids - not too sure. Everyone says they will be better with happy parents even if takes a divorce to make it that way.
What I really want is that last shove to make me get on with it and take the plunge, I don't want to live unhappy and with regret for the rest of my life. What makes it more difficult is that my wife has actually been quite pleasant for the last year since I stopped pushing for sex and we haven't argued, and since I backed out of asking for a divorce twice. I think she thinks I dare not leave her, and she has converted me to a happily celibate meal ticket / house slave.
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Post by h on Jan 15, 2020 10:27:14 GMT -5
fish nobody is going to be able to give you that push. As long as things are tolerable, you will tolerate them. Since you backed out of divorce twice before, your wife is (so far) correct in assuming that you won't go through with it. Only you can give yourself that final push to take the plunge.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 15, 2020 12:41:59 GMT -5
In this case, what does marriage to this woman bring to the table that, say - best case - an amicable ex-spouse and co-parent does not?
In fact, given the level of contempt and abuse that is obviously present - what does it bring you than a hostile ex-spouse does not?
There is a legal "technicality" of marriage that's separate from the a "living reality" of it.
For example, I am technically married to my ex-wife and we share financial burdens with respect to our living arrangements and kids. I don't share a bed nor have romantic ambitions or a unique attraction to her, and our efforts are exerted towards minimizing our impact on each other, and on cooperating on our mutual endeavors - the kids. Without the MONUMENTAL constant daily rejection - resulting from the difference between our expectations to be living what we think a married relationship should be, vs what we actually are doing - it lifted a massive monkey off our backs.
I doubt that either you or your wife would stand in front of your families and publicly devote your lives to celibacy and abuse with each other. A marriage is more than household management and shared resources. Ex-spouses have those things too, without being married.
I think as you go forward, it would help to consider what tethers you into enduring a life of celibacy and contempt. Do you think that if you uncoupled the parts of your relationship that no-one would want, that it might help you to make room to become more actualized as people?
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Post by DryCreek on Jan 15, 2020 14:15:59 GMT -5
Apocrypha, I presume you’ve evaluated the potential impact on alimony by allowing the marriage to “technically” continue? Why is that not a concern in your case, and why not formalize the end if you’ve already tackled the hard parts? fish, it may not be a factor, but in some jurisdictions 20 years is the milestone where alimony becomes a lifetime entitlement. As is often the recommendation here, get an initial meeting with a lawyer in your jurisdiction to get the best advice.
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fish
Junior Member
Posts: 29
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by fish on Jan 15, 2020 14:22:13 GMT -5
Thanks for the further replies h and apocrypha.
I once posted on reddit deadbedrooms when things were at their worst and got nothing but bile against my wife and demands that I should leave her immediately. Sort of reassuring but I simply couldn't leave her at that point so actually not very helpful. The replies here are much more thoughtful.
apocrypha - so do you have an open relationship? Personally the worst part of this for me is the total lack of any intimacy and/or sex, and the frustration at having my sex life completely stopped. I have never asked my wife for an open relationship but she did scream at me once that if I ever even considered asking for an open relationship then I could forget it. We seem to have reached a plateau in that we tolerate each other, even have slightly pleasant conversations occasionally, as long as we don't talk about sex or politics. It's a bit like the old couple sat on a bench by the seaside both tolerating each other but only because they have to and have no other option. I think your arrangement if it does not involve the option of outsourcing would be very much how I am living now.
h - yes, but I'm always hoping to be told the magic secret key to deciding what is best. I know it won't happen.
DryCreek - I'm in the UK, not sure what happens here.
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 15, 2020 15:35:04 GMT -5
apocrypha - so do you have an open relationship? Personally the worst part of this for me is the total lack of any intimacy and/or sex, and the frustration at having my sex life completely stopped. I have never asked my wife for an open relationship but she did scream at me once that if I ever even considered asking for an open relationship then I could forget it. We seem to have reached a plateau in that we tolerate each other, even have slightly pleasant conversations occasionally, as long as we don't talk about sex or politics. It's a bit like the old couple sat on a bench by the seaside both tolerating each other but only because they have to and have no other option. I think your arrangement if it does not involve the option of outsourcing would be very much how I am living now. After I had already posed that we would proceed to separate, and had begun talking to a lawyer, we were folding laundry together. I asked her "Now that we are separating, are you relieved that you will never have to have sex again?" She paused and I caught the thought bubble. She was imagining a robust sexual exploration now, but not with me. She admitted as such and the next day, she pitched an open relationship and I agreed, calling it relationship 2.0. My rationale at the time was that I was also imagining a robust sexual exploration, and if someone like her moved in next door, I might have said yes to such a proposal. I felt I had nothing really to lose, and if it did not work, we could revert back to separating. One of my criteria though, was that she and I would be primary partners. Her stated idea was that having the "freedom" seemed to have engaged her toward feeling congenial toward me, and more sexual in general, which she felt optimistic in exploring with me. We ran that program for several years in various iterations, and found that while I was better able to do the considerable emotional work it takes to process the feelings to make something like that work, she was not able or not willing to do so, and became eventually abusive toward me, and also self-destructive. In addition to that, she also quit sex and all intimacy with me again. I made a call then and we separated. I promise you - it's what you've written down plainly - the contempt at the core of your marriage is the worst. It has many effects - one of which is that she doesn't want to have sex with you. Nobody wants to have sex with a person who they don't see as a sexual partner, especially when calcified contempt is at its core. Imagine being single and disliking or disliking someone that much. Imagine the amount of work it would take just to claw back up to indifference - like a random stranger on the street. She also hits you, and you don't feel comfortable talking to her. If you look carefully at this point, it's also likely that she avoids all expressions of intimacy with you to keep from leading you on. This is in your HOME. Do you feel welcome there? |
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Post by Apocrypha on Jan 15, 2020 15:48:20 GMT -5
Apocrypha , I presume you’ve evaluated the potential impact on alimony by allowing the marriage to “technically” continue? Why is that not a concern in your case, and why not formalize the end if you’ve already tackled the hard parts? I live in a metropolitan city. A single modest, semi-detached home (3 bed, 15ft wide and a tiny lot) in an ok neighbourhood, is about $850k. We have two kids who are now teens but were not, then. The entire dual income earnings went to paying the mortgage on that home. Neither of us was able to afford to buy the other out. To buy in the same city in a relatively same school district, would mean inventing out of thin air, close to another million bucks. We decided together that our choices were either one party lives in a shitty small apartment and funds the other to live with the kids, or we keep financially merged for the time being - rent an apartment very close by - and get creative with our "arrangement" to spend time with the kids. We initially did a bird's nest arrangement, with the two of us swapping in and out of the apartment. When she passive aggressively disrespected our clear rules for that option, I ended it. I live with the kids and grant her access on "her days". We have lived separately for 5 years and could reasonably prove that if one of us contested it. Alimony etc would be keyed to that if it was a problem. It's actually not an uncommon thing in this city as a result. With the kids' older now, able to take transit on their own, and going to different schools - as well as possibly an inheritance on her side, there may be an opportunity coming for each of us to sell and purchase property that could house our kids. 3 bedroom condos are very rare here, and expensive - but possibly 2 bedroom condos with a convertible living room swing space might work. |
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Post by isthisit on Jan 15, 2020 16:54:38 GMT -5
I am very sorry to hear about your experiences in your marriage. Frankly it sounds horrendous, abusive and unlikely to change significantly. I understand your wish to move on and focus on thriving rather than surviving.
I am a little younger than you,, had 21 years invested in my marriage, am also in the UK and have similarly aged children. Although my marriage was was rather different to yours I also reached rock bottom-sensations of despair, guilt and seeing no way out are familiar to me. I arrived here as a confirmed ‘stayer’. If I remember rightly I justified this here and to myself as “for the benefit of others”. Gaining the perspectives of those here ahead of me in the journey to reclaim yourself enabled me to recognise that I had overlooked the importance of my happiness and wellbeing.
A year ago this week the words I had suppressed for so long came tumbling out of my mouth and I told my H that I could not be his W any longer.
It turns out that our kids knew that our relationship was not as it should have been and were upset, but also very supportive of me and my choice to reclaim my life once they understood how unhappy I had become. I cannot tell you how proud I am of them for that. I feel as though while these circumstances are clearly undesirable and not what anyone ever hopes for, my children have learnt a valuable life lesson- that if you find yourself unhappy you have a responsibility to yourself to effect a change. The kids are doing just fine today, and my H is slowly getting there too.
Just as you suggest dating is a bit more than I can contemplate today, but I’m okay with that just now, life is plenty complicated enough as it is. I am happier, reclaiming who I was and no longer fear the future.
Have confidence in yourself you deserve more from life than your current existence. How you get there is your choice, there is support here without judgement and it can work miracles.
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Post by DryCreek on Jan 15, 2020 18:11:01 GMT -5
Thanks, Apocrypha. Mostly, I was curious about defense against alimony claims for the whole duration vs the “real” timeframe. Continuing to pry, if you’ll indulge... have you taken steps to declare legal separation? Without it, I’d think you’re exposed to, say, a legal judgement or a huge medical bill incurred by your still-spouse. I wonder even about new credit, loans, etc. - sure, the court can assign her responsibility for paying them, but wouldn’t a creditor still have legal standing against you for debts she incurs before separation (regardless of living arrangements)? |
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Post by baza on Jan 15, 2020 19:10:08 GMT -5
Thanks baza. My wife did a good job of destroying my social life, although I actively let it happen. Making an effort now to make new friends, although it's not as easy as it used to be at 51! I don't really have family so no support there. If I divorce I will be mostly on my own to start with, but I have plenty of interests and hobbies so am not too frightened about being able to socialise and meet new people, I'm not too shy, and I'm happy with my own company anyway. Was thinking of going to see a solicitor to find out how bad it is. Getting out of the house without her knowing what I am up to is not easy though. Kids - not too sure. Everyone says they will be better with happy parents even if takes a divorce to make it that way. What I really want is that last shove to make me get on with it and take the plunge, I don't want to live unhappy and with regret for the rest of my life. What makes it more difficult is that my wife has actually been quite pleasant for the last year since I stopped pushing for sex and we haven't argued, and since I backed out of asking for a divorce twice. I think she thinks I dare not leave her, and she has converted me to a happily celibate meal ticket / house slave. Once you get all your research work done, you will be in a position to make a FULLY INFORMED choice Brother fish . You already know what it's like living in an ILIASM shithole, but you don't seem to know a real lot about NOT living in an ILIASM shithole. At this very moment, you can't make a fully informed choice, because you are not fully informed. You are trying to make a choice without being in possession of all the facts, and that seldom works out well. And again - once you have done your homework - you may find that a divorce scenario is nowhere near as bad as you fear (or you might find it could be even worse than you fear) but at least you would *know* and that knowledge will likely ease your anxiety about the present "unknown" aspects of the situation. |
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Post by greatcoastal on Jan 15, 2020 20:19:38 GMT -5
What I really want is that last shove to make me get on with it and take the plunge, I don't want to live unhappy and with regret for the rest of my life. What makes it more difficult is that my wife has actually been quite pleasant for the last year since I stopped pushing for sex and we haven't argued, and since I backed out of asking for a divorce twice. I think she thinks I dare not leave her, and she has converted me to a happily celibate meal ticket / house slave. Sounds like you are looking for more "tipping points"? It's true that you will have to answer "what will it take to push me over the edge?". A tipping point. (or several) A time when you no longer will be a doormat, put yourself last, decide that "this is the rock bottom, most anything else would be better". Or " I am nothing. Just an outer shell. My entire identity, is controlled by others"-codependency. Perhaps, as you set boundaries, and (the hard part) ENFORCE them with consequences, then.... the real truth comes out and you can honestly feel that you went way above and beyond and it's way beyond time to "heal thyself" by finding others who will respect and cherish you? YOU. For just being....YOU!  Your W's pleasantness sounds like a fake-mask, and /or you deceiving yourself that things are "good enough" as you continue to lower, and lower your standards. Also known as "death by a thousands cuts" (been there, I feel your pain brother!) |
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Post by saarinista on Jan 16, 2020 2:53:57 GMT -5
fish, welcome. I'm sorry you are in this hellish deal. it's a marriage in name only. I hope you will take the advice offered to see a lawyer. life is short and it sounds as if you are being used, big time. that's no good for you or your kids.
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fish
Junior Member
Posts: 29
Age Range: 51-55
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Post by fish on Jan 18, 2020 2:50:11 GMT -5
Thanks again to everyone. Very sensible advice from some very sensible people.
Next step is seeing a solicitor.
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