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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 19:40:12 GMT -5
 Caveat: this is generally a positive site for women. Unfortunately, women on most chat sites are trolled, stalked, belittled and have to deal with mansplaining. I will use the "I" pronoun so there is NO speculation about the source of my words. They are mine, and I stand behind them and take full responsibility for them. Here goes.... Hi I'm Z, one of the women who is about ready to quit this site, permanently. I will share my experiences to give you a little snapshot of what women deal with. I was a member of EP, but did not post on that site. The site was "too much of a good thing," and difficult to monitor, as it became a catch-all for any group under the sun. I was distressed by the fact that minors were chatting on the same site as adults, even though they did not have access to the NSFW/adult groups. Right. I was a member of ILIASM since the 1st month and I became a benefactor because I thought the site was worth my monetary support. Since its inception this was a great place to spend some time. We shared, commiserate, laughed, supported, celebrated milestones and mourned losses. Together. The site became more popular and new folks joined, existing members left, or took a break and returned. EP trolls followed some of us here and sent inappropriate messages and posted vile comments to/about some of us (women). Throughout that time, I felt like the men were on our team. It was ILIASM men and women against the trolls. Period. That vibe does not exist anymore. The vast majority of the members are great people who are here in the spirit of the site - to be with other folks who understand the complexities of living in a SM. If everyone was in that place, I would not be considering leaving. Sadly, however, there are some men who simply do not like and are intimidated by strong women. They are "irritated " when a woman uses the word "mansplaining" to describe a pattern of discounting or poo-pooing comments by women. www.guernicamag.com/daily/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/Many of the women on this site work with, around, and/or supervise men. We KNOW how to communicate with men. We do not need men to interpret our comments or thoughts. Personally speaking, it makes my blood boil to have some milquetoasty, butthurt, woman-hating man (aka. Girl-hating Guy or GG for short) try to "tell" me what I mean or what I'm talking about. Makes me angry AF. Especially, the ones held up as "experts" in SM. You want to know who the real "experts" at SM? The ones who figured out how to go from a sexless marriage to one with a full, intimate, hot, naughty and erotic sex life. With the SAME spouse. Those people are NOT on this site, btw. Since I didn't really care to deal with GGgs, so I stopped posting my comments on board after board. Even when I had something to contribute. I allowed MY voice to be silenced by some random internet schmuck. It got so bad, that seeing certain names in a thread would lead me to logging out, without commenting. I missed my ILIASM friends. My women friends and 1 man, sent me personal messages, wondering where I was. The rest of people I thought were friends did not. That hurt. I'm sure the GGs thought, "We're glad that man-hating bitch is gone. She's so aggressive and gets in our faces, and doesn't know her place." Trust me. I read your veiled comments. I'm not stupid. I also know that since I can dish it out, I have to be prepared to take it. Days turned to weeks. Weeks turned to months. I lurked, saw the same "all women are bad" types of comments, be challenged by women. Then the "you don't understand how I feel" BS comments posted by the GGs - to women who were trying to HELP. SMH Some people love wallowing in their own pathos, and if that's your bag? Cool. Just don't drag people who are doing the hard work of finding the POSITIVE parts of life into your dark hole. It's exhausting and gets old fast. This week three AMAZING women left ILIASM - helentishappy, @elle and mountainrunner. These aren't some random, storybook one-in-a-million girls. They are once in a lifetime WOMEN. Like the rest of the women here. We listen to y'all rip other women (usually your refusers) to shreds, make a generalization about "all women" and STILL we try to build y'all up. In fact the LAST comments those two women made were in support of men in SM. But, you're so poisoned against us, that you couldn't keep from saying something negative to them. SHAME ON YOU. I suspect the Mods will ask me to delete myself after this rant, and I will abide by their wishes. But, if I stay, I will no longer censor my own voice. Because someone needs to say build a bridge and get over it. YOUR anger/sadness/shitstorm of your own making is YOURS. OWN IT. I'M DONE BEING QUIET.  |
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Post by itsjustus on Sept 19, 2016 20:41:20 GMT -5
"This week two AMAZING women left ILIASM - helentishappy, elle and mountainrunner. These aren't some random, storybook one-in-a-million girls. They are once in a lifetime WOMEN. Like the rest of the women here. We listen to y'all rip other women (usually your refusers) to shreds, make a generalization about "all women" and STILL we try to build y'all up."
No truer words spoken.
Count yourself in among them Z.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 20:46:04 GMT -5
"This week two AMAZING women left ILIASM - helentishappy, elle and mountainrunner. These aren't some random, storybook one-in-a-million girls. They are once in a lifetime WOMEN. Like the rest of the women here. We listen to y'all rip other women (usually your refusers) to shreds, make a generalization about "all women" and STILL we try to build y'all up." No truer words spoken. Count yourself in among them Z. Your words mean the world to me itsjustus. You're one of the good ones, hon. |
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Post by JMX on Sept 19, 2016 21:07:46 GMT -5
@zumbamami - I am glad you are staying - even if you're currently ambivalent. And I don't think you should censor yourself one bit. I never have - although, I will say, my alcohol-soaked posts and comments make me slap my own damn head on occasion (the next morning at least).
I just don't understand the experience you have had here - and I follow almost every thread. I find this site rather tame, to be honest, at least compared to EP. Hardly anyone is disrespectful. The ones that are get questioned and put in their place regularly.
While I am so SO sad to see Mountainrunner, helentishappy and Elle? Really? Elle too? go, I think it was a little rash. All of this could have been worked out.
I spoke privately to admin. Admin and the mods were upset too. And I want to clarify - I had previously said it was a shame that comments were removed - but I was thinking of some thread with a "Richard" who was apparently vile, but I wanted his comments to remain. I was NOT speaking on that particular thread that caused the uproar. What did bother me about that thread was the lockdown. Admin's explanation was simple - they thought it may be about to get out of hand, locked it down and discussed it before opening it back up. It took three days because everyone has jobs and lives. I can appreciate that. They do this as a service to us. I appreciate them whole-heartedly.
So - the way I see it in a couple of respects (not that anyone is asking):
1.) did they lock it down prematurely while waiting to converse about it? Yes. In my opinion, it was not worthy of a lockdown (I have low, low lockdown standards, admittedly). Had it been allowed to go (it was already a mostly dead thread) it would have been fine. BUT! I don't make these decisions and I am super thankful for the ones that take the time to make these decisions.
Remember - Mountainrunner and helentishappy did not leave because of the man's opinion on this, or because they felt bullied by the man in the thread, they left because of the lockdown and later explanation for the lockdown. The explanation - in my opinion was meant as general standards and not about that particular thread. But those women neither wanted the protection or perceived attention that came with that protection. I get it. But, it could have been worked out. They didn't have to leave.
2.). Let's use the vile "Richard" as an example. Really? Are we all collectively losing sleep over him? No! He's an idiot. I like arguing with idiots. I have said before - I may just be sick and twisted (we all know this may be the case). But I do not need anyone to worry about my sensitivity and nature and remove comments from my view. In my opinion, it's like being told I cannot read a book because it's inappropriate. I DECIDE whether or not someone is worthy of my reading, support or a sincere ass-chewing. It's as simple as a scroll down and a shaking of the head OR a mean comment back. I fear this site has become the thought police because some people don't like others' views and have complained. The wringing of hands over who is going to be upset by what is why the admin and mods had to be more vigilant. The squeakiest wheel...
I have said time and again - we women are not so precious to need that level of protection. Say what you think!! Take it when it comes back at you. Throw it right fucking back. Who cares? I haven't met a dumb woman on this site. Not one.
Stay here. Be you. Understand that we all have different backgrounds, ages, thoughts. Consider before you answer. Let's not take each other so seriously - at least before considering the pain we are all in or have been in. We all have bad days. Mountainrunner had a bad day, Helen had a bad day, admin had a bad day, the mods had a bad day.
We're all just humans trying to figure it all out.
I wish you peace and very glad you are staying!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 21:14:30 GMT -5
JMX I was speaking for/about myself, my experiences and how I felt about the women leaving. But, I WILL be participating fully in ALL threads. I PAY to keep this site going, so I refuse to be silent anymore. I've got brassballs and they're so big they're on my chest. I love ya, girl!
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Post by JMX on Sept 19, 2016 21:16:15 GMT -5
Ha! I don't doubt it! Funny  and, thank you for paying - I am too poor, currently  |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 19, 2016 21:36:24 GMT -5
Thank you, @zumbamami, for not going quietly into the night - dragging the issue into the light has a much better chance of making a difference.
Now, I'm probably going to pour kerosene on the fire... try to read me objectively here, but... I don't get it.
I probably just made a hater out of every woman on the board, but I'm trying to be honest here. Educate me, please (gently). Maybe I'm not the only one, and maybe this is the root of the problem.
When I say "I don't get it", I don't mean "I don't sympathize".
What I mean is that I don't see what you (and others) see. And I'm not saying my perspective is right, either. I'm saying I'm blind to the issue.
Now, combination of a verbally abusive mother and about 30 years of Internet discussion formats have given me a pretty thick skin. My attitude is that there's a whole spectrum of opinions out there, and I don't let it bother me that someone thinks differently, as long as they can be respectful while representing it. And I've worked with people of both genders who are walking HR violations; I'm amazed that some of them even stay employed. But for me most of that crap bounces off.
Cringeworthy stuff does happen here, but when it crosses the line the members seem to be vocal. (A certain viral sandwich comes to mind.) But for a sex-oriented site, the membership is pretty tame. Tame enough? Apparently not?
Where the line is surely fuzzy (and maybe this is where a bunch of the issues lie??)... what some crowds consider tame, others consider offensive. And especially in this subject area, there are gonna be some things that offend. (E.g., a running commentary among guys who love / miss performing oral, will no doubt be waaay TMI for some viewers - perhaps more so depending on how it's expressed.)
But I suspect there's more to the bad vibe than I'm capturing here. Like I said... color me clueless. Clearly, things that roll off my back are eating at others, especially women.
Now... is this "mansplaining"? I dunno. I'm just sharing my viewpoint, not trying to tell-it-like-it-is. As described in the article (I did read it), guys have a different term for "mansplaining" - we call it more bluntly "talking out of his ass"... and guys do it to guys too; some guys are just that way, and they annoy us too. (And, yeah, that does seem to be more of a guy thing.)
More than once I've had the satisfaction of crushing some pompous nerd who believed himself to be an authority way beyond his knowledge. Most of the time we just agree that "he's full of shit" and ignore the loudmouth. But that's a guy reaction.
I'm gonna stop rambling now. Maybe I made a point there, or maybe I just underscored your note with a perfectly bad example...
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Post by JMX on Sept 19, 2016 21:46:35 GMT -5
DryCreek - I understand exactly what you're getting at! I am wonder too @zumbamami. To put it bluntly - as I had a hard time doing before - what's the beef? I cannot for the life of me understand a woman's perspective that I am supposed to have here. Mountainrunner and helentishappy did not leave because of the way they were treated by the men here. They left because of the REACTION to a man's words. As if they could not take care of themselves. I still love ya' - I sincerely need to know.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 21:53:39 GMT -5
DryCreek "I don't understand" is "I don't understand" whether you're on Team Vag or Team Peen. As I mentioned in my initial post I had a stalker HERE. He sent me private messages and made inappropriate comments, that were mostly annoying, then crossed the line. He was banned from the site. Did that make me a bit more wary? YES. You don't go through those situations unscathed. In fact,I suspect most women here have their own list of trolls and stalkers they've accumulated over the years. It's the same as sidewalk harassment. We learn to put up with it, from childhood. Most online trolls and stalkers are harmless,but there are some who really have hatred of women. Fortunately, we have dodged that bullet here. My anger is over the fact that longtime members felt like they were not welcome here, anymore. I honestly thought I was the only one who felt that way. Clearly, I was not. I don't know what could have been done to work through the situation with helentishappy and mountainrunner. I was not part of the thread that blew up, so trying to recreate what was said/not said is not something I can do. I specifically took a hiatus from the site, when I felt like my comments or advice was being belittled by other members. I'm not sure I answered your question, so please let me know if I did, or totally talked around it.
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 19, 2016 22:32:43 GMT -5
@zumbamami, I guess my point is that our experiences give us different reactions to the same inputs, so what's obvious to you doesn't even register for me. I'm thankful that there are a lot fewer "psycho bitches" out there than there are male stalkers, so I haven't had the same kind of disturbing experiences. But that means that I see things with a different lens, blind to your concerns - not out of indifference, but simple lack of awareness / perspective. I'm probably not the only one with this "blind spot".
I, too, am sad that we've lost some valuable members. I wish they would have stayed and duked it out, though they had no obligation to. At the same time, there are many others who have slipped away silently; I miss them too. Maybe they left for a reason too, or maybe it's just natural attrition.
But... all I've achieved here is to explain why I don't see what you see. That doesn't mean you're not seeing it, or that it's not a real issue for you. It just explains why I (and others in my boat) might not be speaking up when it happens.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 19, 2016 23:37:54 GMT -5
All! I'm still here! I'm only leaving b/c I'm simply too busy to stay. I can't read or contribute anymore and I'm busy working my exit plan. It's true, I am in the process of leaving (waiting for goodbyes from friends) and then, yes, I won't check in (much?). I don't plan on deleting my membership yet. I just don't plan on checking in. I'm having a hard time leaving some of my friends. And yes, they are just friends. This isn't the Dating Game (at least not for me)!
I want to say, I'm really grateful for this site and my experience here. I discovered it at a much-needed critical period. This site and some of the people that I met here helped me to grab my bootstraps and yank myself up. This site and those people empowered me! I became powerful enough to ask for a divorce - I never would have done that without you all cheering me on. Go Elle! I'm now back in my personal power. And I feel pretty good, all things considered.
In fact, I've been so busy I'm not even sure which thread you're talking about Z. Sounds like I missed all the excitement. I'm always late to the party...
I've gotten some great advice here - advice that I'll carry with me always - and I've made some great friends. It's true, there are a few people here whose advice I can do without - whose advice I've even found offensive. I just ignore it and then PM a friend with a foul-mouthed diatribe against said advice. And then I'm all better! To be fair, I'm sure some people don't like my advice or commentary either. That's par for the course in an open forum.
I was never stalked. Nor trolled. Not a single gentleman ever asked for or sent inappropriate or even personal pictures. I feel quite well-treated and taken care of here. Z, I'm sorry you had some negative experiences. That would definitely have scared me off. I understand and support your wariness and your ire. You're strong though (so am I now!) and you can take it - talk back girlfriend!!
In closing, I'd like to say thank you to all the very nice men and women I've met here. You've been fabulous and I thank you, truly!
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 9:02:19 GMT -5
But... all I've achieved here is to explain why I don't see what you see. That doesn't mean you're not seeing it, or that it's not a real issue for you. It just explains why I (and others in my boat) might not be speaking up when it happens. In a nutshell, you recognize that we are not experiencing the same things. What separates you from the manslapiners is that you don't challenge women when they report it, or worse, tell the women they are wrong for mentioning it. Or making snarky little comments about being called out for mansplaining. The fact that you're asking the questions is awesome, btw. It's the only way we learn from each other, because it's a lifelong process. |
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Post by misssunnybunny on Sept 20, 2016 14:48:00 GMT -5
@zumbamami , so glad you have decided to stay. You are a strong woman and I love reading your advice, opinions, and perspectives. I am so sorry you went through what you did here. I have been fortunate that all of my interactions here have been positive, and respectful of my personal boundaries. I had a negative experience on EP, and it has made me much more guarded in PM-ing people, and it takes me much longer to trust people (I do feel safer in posting things publicly, which is bit odd seeming, even to me! haha). We have a great group of people here, and we will likely go through more challenges as the membership grows and gets more diverse. I do believe that we are a strong enough group to work through our differences and keep this group a safe and supportive space for long-term members, and those who arrive here and decide to share their stories. {{hugs}}
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 20, 2016 16:19:47 GMT -5
"You keep using that word, mansplaining, I do not think it means what you think it means". ( even my spell check tries to change it).
Honestly you are not helping yourself, as much as you are hurting yourself. It sounds like a pedestal word. Mmm....kind of like if I was to use the words, conservative, traditional, biblical, ethical, feminist,feminazi, un-ethical,racist,socialist,black power, white power,etc.... Get the drift?
I miss your caring advice. I miss your spunk,whit, and humor.
I also need a place were I can be made to feel like a n equal when I say, " help me learn from that, can you reword that , or explain that? Give me an example,a fact, a theory, a story". That goes way farther than being labeled. A place where others think,and feel free to ask, that's what we do here!"
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Post by Deleted on Sept 20, 2016 17:15:31 GMT -5
Honestly you are not helping yourself, as much as you are hurting yourself. It sounds like a pedestal word. Mmm....kind of like if I was to use the words, conservative, traditional, biblical, ethical, feminist,feminotzi, un-ethical,racist,socialist,black power, white power,etc.... Get the drift? I miss your caring advice. I miss your spunk,whit, and humor. NO. Mansplaining - explaining without regard to the fact that the explainee knows more than the explainer, often done by a man to a woman. Ok. You don't like what I'm saying, and think "I'm hurting myself" for speaking honestly. Good enough. Thanks for your honesty, but your opinion was not requested. Have a blessed day. |
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and, thank you for paying - I am too poor, currently 
