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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 5:08:40 GMT -5
I am usually not a leader, it is not my style. I was waiting for someone to continue the thread so I could add my two cents worth. That is not going to happen so I will not let this issue rest the way it has ended. I hate when I feel someone has been unfairly treated, and what has occurred is not fair to our three beautiful women. Because I have not seen a picture of any of them, I am using the word ‘beautiful’ to describe their minds, spirit and their persona. Some things I say may come across as unwarranted or attacking to some, but I want to be clear; if any of my words are redacted or deleted, I will delete my account. I will use the analogy of a simple sibling fight to describe for men how I feel about why the women left. Assume any one against one would be an equal and fair fight. I will begin with Z’s received PM. Caveat: this is generally a positive site for women. Unfortunately, women on most chat sites are trolled, stalked, belittled and have to deal with mansplaining. I will use the "I" pronoun so there is NO speculation about the source of my words. They are mine, and I stand behind them and take full responsibility for them. Here goes.... Hi I'm Z, one of the women who is about ready to quit this site, permanently. I will share my experiences to give you a little snapshot of what women deal with. I was a member of ILIASM since the 1st month and I became a benefactor because I thought the site was worth my monetary support. Since its inception this was a great place to spend some time. We shared, commiserate, laughed, supported, celebrated milestones and mourned losses. Together. The site became more popular and new folks joined, existing members left, or took a break and returned. EP trolls followed some of us here and sent inappropriate messages and posted vile comments to/about some of us (women). Throughout that time, I felt like the men were on our team. It was ILIASM men and women against the trolls. Period. That vibe does not exist anymore. The vast majority of the members are great people who are here in the spirit of the site - to be with other folks who understand the complexities of living in a SM. If everyone was in that place, I would not be considering leaving. Sadly, however, there are some men who simply do not like and are intimidated by strong women. They are "irritated " when a woman uses the word "mansplaining" to describe a pattern of discounting or poo-pooing comments by women. www.guernicamag.com/daily/rebecca-solnit-men-explain-things-to-me/Many of the women on this site work with, around, and/or supervise men. We KNOW how to communicate with men. We do not need men to interpret our comments or thoughts. Personally speaking, it makes my blood boil to have some milquetoasty, butthurt, woman-hating man (aka. Girl-hating Guy or GG for short) try to "tell" me what I mean or what I'm talking about. Makes me angry AF. Especially, the ones held up as "experts" in SM. I lurked, saw the same "all women are bad" types of comments, be challenged by women. Then the "you don't understand how I feel" BS comments posted by the GGs - to women who were trying to HELP. SMH Some people love wallowing in their own pathos, and if that's your bag? Cool. Just don't drag people who are doing the hard work of finding the POSITIVE parts of life into your dark hole. It's exhausting and gets old fast. This week three AMAZING women left ILIASM - helentishappy, @elle and mountainrunner. These aren't some random, storybook one-in-a-million girls. They are once in a lifetime WOMEN. Like the rest of the women here. We listen to y'all rip other women (usually your refusers) to shreds, make a generalization about "all women" and STILL we try to build y'all up. In fact the LAST comments those two women made were in support of men in SM. But, you're so poisoned against us, that you couldn't keep from saying something negative to them. SHAME ON YOU. Someone needs to say build a bridge and get over it. YOUR anger/sadness/shitstorm of your own making is YOURS. OWN IT. I'M DONE BEING QUIET.  Honestly, I just read where a man asked that "we" not use the word mansplaining anymore. That is clear enough for me. I really tried to hold out in hopes this would work itself out. Sadly, it did not and has only stirred up a hornets' nest. To the person who sent me that vile personal message. This feminazi is gone. You won. The last 3 lines. For that responsible person, please have the decency to come forward and proudly give us your message that you were brave enough to send Z personally, but not brave enough to post it for everyone. Surely you want to claim the victory now. Go ahead and mansplain' it to me. Or we can call it noclasschickenshitsplainin' if it suits you better. A lot of men felt Z’s use of the term “mansplaining” was demeaning to them. For those that feel this way, please consider me to be “mansplaining” this explanation to you. I took excerpts from an article entitled ”What is ‘splaining? And why should I care?” ...........‘splainin’ is an “explanation” which is put forward in the most patronizing way possible. The ‘splainer feels passionately that ou opinion and beliefs outweigh actual lived experience and wishes to inform everyone of this fact. ‘splainers are unfortunately especially common in safe spaces in which the voices of people living in marginalized bodies are centered, because such spaces are threatening to people who find our voices contrary to their worldviews. 'splainers feel the need to put their oar in on conversations where they may not specifically be welcome or even wanted, often with an air of entitlement. They approach the conversation from the position that people must be ignorant if they think/experience differently than the ‘splainer does, and that a few rounds in comments will sort them out and bring them over to the side of right. One of the many reasons that this can be harmful is that often people are just starting to come to the place where they feel comfortable asserting their lived experience, because they’ve been taken in by arguments like those presented by the ‘splainer for their whole lives, and seeing those arguments again can set off a spiral of self doubt, confusion, and self loathing. The ‘splainer not only passionately believes that someone’s lived experiences are wrong, but that they need to be corrected, that there are right and wrong answers when it comes to someone’s life. This often involves an active erasure and denial: “I’m being discriminated against.” “No you’re not!” I wonder why women grasp this concept far better then men? If do you not accept I am correct in using the term 'splainin' write back and we will discuss it, because by definition and on purpose I am directly telling you something you should already be well aware of because you have been members here for far longer than I. The two analogies I will use are simple family fights (1) HelenT and IWFM2 had an argument, a little wrestling ensues, Mountainrunner shoves IWFM2, gets her 2 cents in and defends her sister. 3 days later, Dan hears of the argument and slams Mountainrunner down, saying she was wrong to attack IWFM2. Helen shoves Dan. The father(Moderator) saw the fight and comes outside and says “Stop this at once,, you are out of line and I am ending this now, go to your rooms and I will not hear another word.” HelenT and Mountainrunner feel they are in the right and are being unfairly punished and cannot believe their father would not listen to their side. For three days they stew, Dad listens and decides “OK, go outside and you can continue the fight”. Of course it is too late, HT and MR have already decided to move out because they were treated badly and not for the first time. Fight (2) Z gets picked on by one of her brothers, says she will not put up with it and whoever does not like it step outside 8 brothers go outside. She feels totally unwanted, goes inside only to find a vile note. She decides to follow HT and MR out the door. Z, please don't let the pig who wrote the PM win. HT and MR, you are both wonderful and I wish you would reconsider. Some men here have to learn respect and decency. The moderators do a good job but must come across as impartial. I believe we can all get along if we wish. |
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Post by JMX on Sept 22, 2016 6:15:23 GMT -5
@boulderbob - there are two separate issues. 1.) MR and HT leaving over the thread lockdown and 2.) Z feeling disrespected by some of the men here. We were not privy to the PM or what transpired, when she got called a "feminazi".
Z has deleted her account before, also over a PM in what she described as a stalker. The membership does not know how either transpired. ***EDIT - it has been brought to my attention, and rightfully so, that this is an oversimplification and incorrect understanding of her first delete - she explains it in her original post***. Sorry about my part in the misinformation.
Are her feelings valid? Of curse they are. She had them. Is her choice to leave valid? Absolutely.
I would bet dollars to donuts that if you took a vote of the females here, the majority of us would say we have not experienced what Z has experienced (at least to a degree) and therefore don't understand the beef.
The calling out of hurt feelings for mansplainin' (in an attempt to curtail it) would only serve to water-down everyone's responses or story posts in the future.
A thread - like this - educating on mansplainin'? Sure. A general murky rule of thumb to keep it from happening? Ridiculous.
We all have people in our lives that we know or don't know very well, all with different views and applications of those views. We can choose to engage them or not. Same here. We can scroll down and not engage if we wish, or engage if we wish to do that.
There is also a block button.
This place would lose valuable insights if we all collectively decided to walk on egg shells and tiptoed around everyone's feelings. Especially considering we all have emotional roller coasters of our own, and are all sensitive in different ways at any given time.
No one is going to edit you or delete your comments. That only ever happened on the "vile Richard" thread.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 6:44:03 GMT -5
Wingman, I don't have a problem with the word "splaining." I have a problem with the word "mansplaining."
(And "womansplaining" too by the way).
Edit: After reading more posts I think I need to remind everyone why I suggest - suggest - that we don't use these words. My reason for this suggestion is that these words are generalizations. If we want to avoid generalizations, don't use them. That's all. This isn't an attempt to suppress free speech and institute a fascist dictatorship. LOL
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 22, 2016 11:53:32 GMT -5
A couple points to consider...
First, the entire psychological concept of "being offended" is based on how the *recipient* interprets the situation. *We* choose how we react to the things we see and hear. Yes, there are assholes who actively seek to trigger a reaction, but even then it's the recipient who determines their reaction - whether that's anger, sadness, happiness, or being offended.
So, the next time you feel "offended", consider doing a self-check. Do you feel this way because the person is actively provoking you and deserves a reaction? Or is it a reaction to someone who isn't being malicious, but just has different values / perspective / morals than you do? In the latter case, does it really warrant a reaction, or simply move on and choose to avoid the person? Goodness knows, if I engaged every opportunity, a trip to the break room would take hours. In the former case, I'd expect the mods to keep the provoking jerks in check.
Second, (and this is stepping dangerously into word police territory...) if I constantly used the term "bitchy"... it's going to set the tone of conversation, people's perception of me, and influence how they react (see above). It might accurately describe behavior, and I could claim I'm not being gender-specific, but it's a word that's historically derogative toward women. It will start to polarize conversation, or at least color me as having a low opinion of women. If I chose to tread that line, I shouldn't be surprised if this happens.
And since we're on linguistics, here's a word whose use has brought down (undeserved?) wrath on more than a few people in the public eye: niggardly. (Gasp!!) It's not the word you think you read. And it doesn't mean what most people think - not even close. Look it up - it means cheap, miserly, stingy. Zero reference to anything racial. But... it *sounds* similar; people will, and most do, hear or read something different than intended. Now, I could insist on using it in my regular vocabulary, standing on my pedestal of linguistic accuracy - or I can accept that it will be forever misunderstood and evoke a negative reaction regardless of my intent, and simply not push that line. That's the smarter call.
Point being... you can try to argue your innocence, but when you tread a line with terms that evoke an emotional response in a broad group, don't be surprised if it garners a negative reaction.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 12:15:13 GMT -5
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Post by greatcoastal on Sept 22, 2016 18:00:57 GMT -5
@builderbob - there are two separate issues. 1.) MR and HT leaving over the thread lockdown and 2.) Z feeling disrespected by some of the men here. We were not privy to the PM or what transpired, when she got called a "feminazi". I have not read on any thread anyone or Z being called a " feminazi". When,and by whom Has this occurred? Did this occur in a PM? If so only two people know the context of that word. Taking a word out of context can change it's whole meaning. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 18:06:18 GMT -5
@builderbob - there are two separate issues. 1.) MR and HT leaving over the thread lockdown and 2.) Z feeling disrespected by some of the men here. We were not privy to the PM or what transpired, when she got called a "feminazi". Z has deleted her account before, also over a PM in what she described as a stalker. The membership does not know how either transpired. Are her feelings valid? Of curse they are. She had them. Is her choice to leave valid? Absolutely. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you took a vote of the females here, the majority of us would say we have not experienced what Z has experienced (at least to a degree) and therefore don't understand the beef. The calling out of hurt feelings for mansplainin' (in an attempt to curtail it) would only serve to water-down everyone's responses or story posts in the future. A thread - like this - educating on mansplainin'? Sure. A general murky rule of thumb to keep it from happening? Ridiculous. We all have people in our lives that we know or don't know very well, all with different views and applications of those views. We can choose to engage them or not. Same here. We can scroll down and not engage if we wish, or engage if we wish to do that. There is also a block button. This place would lose valuable insights if we all collectively decided to walk on egg shells and tiptoed around everyone's feelings. Especially considering we all have emotional roller coasters of our own, and are all sensitive in different ways at any given time. Well, it is hard to believe in this day and age there can be a single issue where everyone is in agreement!! The odds must be astronomical! But I have always defended the unfairly treated, and so I will now begin my own defense; JMX I do realize that there were two very different incidents in question. I understand almost everything you said. I agree with almost everything you said. What my concern is was NOT addressed. Three valuable forum members felt they were unfairly treated on this site and said so and left. One in particular I feel was given a foot in the ass out the door. Is anything going to be done to address this issue? Or should I just think maybe they will come back someday if they want to? And also am I to believe that it will never happen again to anyone else? |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 18:11:27 GMT -5
I have said time and again - we women are not so precious to need that level of protection. Say what you think!! Take it when it comes back at you. Throw it right fucking back. Who cares? I haven't met a dumb woman on this site. Not one. Powerful statement JMX ! I can't agree more. @fiery and JMX I am happy to hear that you are a both strong woman and there are plenty of strong women here. I did not challenge that, but rest assured if it were any man, woman, gay, straight, black, white, etc., whoever, and I feel they are being treated unfairly, I will speak up in their defense. |
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Post by JMX on Sept 22, 2016 18:14:51 GMT -5
greatcoastal - yes it was a PM she was talking about. @builderbob - I never said "all" of us. I did say the "majority" of us. I am not management. I would say, that each person has a responsibility in what they post or comment and the way they take other posts and comments to themselves and to themselves only. I sure hope they all come back, especially if they want to! I don't know anyone (here, I do mean anyone) here that wouldn't welcome them all back! Being anonymous, it would be rather hard to track them all down and beg them back. You can absolutely believe that feelings will always get hurt here. You can also absolutely believe that you will meet and maintain friendships with people here for years (I am going on year 3 with this group).
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Post by JMX on Sept 22, 2016 18:15:39 GMT -5
Powerful statement JMX ! I can't agree more. @fiery and JMX I am happy to hear that you are a both strong woman and there are plenty of strong women here. I did not challenge that, but rest assured if it were any man, woman, gay, straight, black, white, etc., whoever, and I feel they are being treated unfairly, I will speak up in their defense. And so you have! That's amazing and appreciated. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 18:19:46 GMT -5
Wingman, I don't have a problem with the word "splaining." I have a problem with the word "mansplaining." (And "womansplaining" too by the way). Edit: After reading more posts I think I need to remind everyone why I suggest - suggest - that we don't use these words. My reason for this suggestion is that these words are generalizations. If we want to avoid generalizations, don't use them. That's all. This isn't an attempt to suppress free speech and institute a fascist dictatorship. LOL @phinheasgage I agree that generalizations should not be used generally. I disagree with mansplaining being in that category. My personal belief is if someone is doing the verb (action) described as splaining, and for example I will use myself, then just tell me. I will evaluate what I wrote and either agree or disagree. It is not a noun(but it can be). It is not a derogatory word. It is not limited to men. I have encountered reading about many ‘splaining types: ladysplaining- women to men straightsplaining- straight person to gay whitesplaining- describing racism to a black person There are many, many more examples I could site. But I guess the bottom line is who should be offended, the person doing the ‘splaining or the person who receives the sermon. I think the receiver is the offended party and should have the right to use that critique if it is warranted. If the ‘splainer does not want to be ‘hoisted by his own petard’ he should refrain. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 18:33:38 GMT -5
Wingman, I don't have a problem with the word "splaining." I have a problem with the word "mansplaining." (And "womansplaining" too by the way). Edit: After reading more posts I think I need to remind everyone why I suggest - suggest - that we don't use these words. My reason for this suggestion is that these words are generalizations. If we want to avoid generalizations, don't use them. That's all. This isn't an attempt to suppress free speech and institute a fascist dictatorship. LOL @phinheasgage I agree that generalizations should not be used generally. I disagree with mansplaining being in that category. My personal belief is if someone is doing the verb (action) described as splaining, and for example I will use myself, then just tell me. I will evaluate what I wrote and either agree or disagree. It is not a noun(but it can be). It is not a derogatory word. It is not limited to men. I have encountered reading about many ‘splaining types: ladysplaining- women to men straightsplaining- straight person to gay whitesplaining- describing racism to a black person There are many, many more examples I could site. But I guess the bottom line is who should be offended, the person doing the ‘splaining or the person who receives the sermon. I think the receiver is the offended party and should have the right to use that critique if it is warranted. If the ‘splainer does not want to be ‘hoisted by his own petard’ he should refrain. All good points. I'm not too concerned over how offensive or not those words are (although I wonder how it would go over had I told Z she womansplained me). I take mansplaining for example to mean to explain things in a belittling condescending way: like a man. Does this only refer to the man who is splaining at the moment, or does it mean that's how men explain things? If the former, it is not a generalization. If the latter, it is. Maybe we're just getting hung up on semantics but now I really want to know LOL. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 18:49:41 GMT -5
A couple points to consider... First, the entire psychological concept of "being offended" is based on how the *recipient* interprets the situation. *We* choose how we react to the things we see and hear. Yes, there are assholes who actively seek to trigger a reaction, but even then it's the recipient who determines their reaction - whether that's anger, sadness, happiness, or being offended. So, the next time you feel "offended", consider doing a self-check. Do you feel this way because the person is actively provoking you and deserves a reaction? Or is it a reaction to someone who isn't being malicious, but just has different values / perspective / morals than you do? In the latter case, does it really warrant a reaction, or simply move on and choose to avoid the person? Goodness knows, if I engaged every opportunity, a trip to the break room would take hours. In the former case, I'd expect the mods to keep the provoking jerks in check. Second, (and this is stepping dangerously into word police territory...) if I constantly used the term "bitchy"... it's going to set the tone of conversation, people's perception of me, and influence how they react (see above). It might accurately describe behavior, and I could claim I'm not being gender-specific, but it's a word that's historically derogative toward women. It will start to polarize conversation, or at least color me as having a low opinion of women. If I chose to tread that line, I shouldn't be surprised if this happens. And since we're on linguistics, here's a word whose use has brought down (undeserved?) wrath on more than a few people in the public eye: niggardly. (Gasp!!) It's not the word you think you read. And it doesn't mean what most people think - not even close. Look it up - it means cheap, miserly, stingy. Zero reference to anything racial. But... it *sounds* similar; people will, and most do, hear or read something different than intended. Now, I could insist on using it in my regular vocabulary, standing on my pedestal of linguistic accuracy - or I can accept that it will be forever misunderstood and evoke a negative reaction regardless of my intent, and simply not push that line. That's the smarter call. Point being... you can try to argue your innocence, but when you tread a line with terms that evoke an emotional response in a broad group, don't be surprised if it garners a negative reaction. I have to give you the tip of my cap. You have the first post that has provoked me. I know you felt no guilt in what you wrote, you were just making a point, educating me in your own way. I hope my reply serves to educate you also. I have just come up with a new word to describe your post, “ginormousmansplaining”. I think you can figure out what I mean. So, if you feel “offended”, consider following your own advice and doing a self-check. On your point of linguistics, using the words “bitchy” and “niggardly”, I don’t know, just what the hell is your point? Oh yes of course, it was mansplaining, or in your case “ginormousmansplaining”. Point made. My point being……..…….don’t fucking mansplain. It is insulting. And also I can take the negative reactions this broad a group feels is warranted, because I am not going to sacrifice my dignity if the subject is about something I strongly believe in. P.S. I have always liked and respected you DryCreek. Take this as a friendly disagreement or  ?, it is entirely up to you. Also this was edited by me. It was very harsh before, sort of like nuclear bomb harsh. At the moment I was pissed. And I still am a little upset at your lecture. Sorry if you feel I did not edit enough. P.P.S. JMX the tag on my original name was not ‘builderbob’ from Bob the Builder, but ‘boulderbob’ as in Bob the rock climber. |
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Post by baza on Sept 22, 2016 18:52:39 GMT -5
gl345. tumbleweed. kalani.
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These above are the names of the last 3 people to join this group.
What they are looking for, what contributions they will make to the group in days to come is unknown.
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helentishappy. mountainrunner. zumbamami.
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These are the names of the last 3 people to have left the group, after making terrific contributions to it. (thank you you 3).
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And the ILIASM caravan strikes its' tents, and moves on.
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The direction the ILIASM caravan now takes is up to you, me, us, the contributors. Just like always was / is the case.
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I'd suggest that you - me - all of us - are best served by writing as you have been doing. State your case, and be prepared to defend it.
By necessity, this means that sometimes you are probably going to inadvertently step on someones toes at some point, and /or have your own tootsies stepped upon.
That's the potential price of your ticket on the caravan.
And, your ticket is fully redeemable. You can cash it in and get off the caravan whenever you like, for whatever reason you like.
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The caravan no longer has relevance for respected former members helentishappy. mountainrunner. zumbamami.
It may have some great relevance for new members gl345. tumbleweed. kalani.
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Post by unmatched on Sept 22, 2016 18:57:20 GMT -5
@boulderbob I think the reason that this became an issue is because Z came out with a post that said there are a bunch of GGs (girl hating guys) on this site and that she was fed up with the constant mansplaining where women are told what to feel by guys who don't know what they are talking about. I must say I have not experienced that or been aware of it, and having talked to a bunch of women on this site over the last few days they have said the same thing. People write stuff that I don't agree with, and sometimes they might write stuff very forcefully that they don't know anything about, but I have never noticed any gender bias in that. If there are women here who feel differently then there is a big issue which we need to deal with and I hope they will speak out, but I haven't heard any yet. And yes, if she got a vicious PM like that then that is way over the line. I wish she could have posted it publicly so we could all read it and know who sent it. I don't think there is any excuse for that. But I wish she hadn't left as a result because I don't believe it represents this place as a whole. And I haven't seen anything in the main threads that I felt was discriminating or wrong or that expressed a desire for Z to leave. With regard to HelenT and mountainrunner, I think we also need to bear in mind that this site was set up by a few friends from EP who are also coming from SMs and are not any more enlightened than the rest of us. I don't see any particular gender bias in what happened. I think maybe Admin freaked out and overreacted because they were scared of the thread becoming confrontational, and I don't personally believe it was necessary or a good thing. But nor do I think it was an attempt to rebuke or curb their opinions. It was just one person's fear that caused a mess. (Admin, if that isn't fair then please say so. Given where we all came from I don't see any great need to maintain a lot of separation between admin and person functions here, but I guess that is up to you  ) So unless they have any reason to believe that what happened was personal or prejudiced in some way, I hope they can get past it. I know a lot of people have expressed (both here and in PMs) that they wish they would come back. And I hope they do - I value both of them enormously. |
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?, it is entirely up to you. Also this was edited by me. It was very harsh before, sort of like nuclear bomb harsh. At the moment I was pissed. And I still am a little upset at your lecture. Sorry if you feel I did not edit enough.
) So unless they have any reason to believe that what happened was personal or prejudiced in some way, I hope they can get past it.