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Post by JMX on Sept 22, 2016 18:59:30 GMT -5
@boulderbob - sorry, hit or miss it looks like.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 19:06:21 GMT -5
Great point baza, My problem (and sometimes I have to remind myself) is that I just hang on to people for too long. It is hard for me to let go when I need to let go, but are we certain it is helentishappy, mountainrunner, and zumbamamis' time to go? |
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Post by baza on Sept 22, 2016 19:21:14 GMT -5
I would much prefer that we enjoyed ongoing contributions from these 3 respected former members Brother Wingman.
But that's what "I" would prefer.
These 3 respected former members chose to drop off, so I figure that yes, their choice, so it was their time.
No point in me trying to second guess them. That would be highly disrespectful.
They are all pretty smart chicks, I'd imagine that they made fully informed choices, concerning their own unique circumstances.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 22, 2016 19:40:42 GMT -5
A couple points to consider... First, the entire psychological concept of "being offended" is based on how the *recipient* interprets the situation. *We* choose how we react to the things we see and hear. Yes, there are assholes who actively seek to trigger a reaction, but even then it's the recipient who determines their reaction - whether that's anger, sadness, happiness, or being offended. So, the next time you feel "offended", consider doing a self-check. Do you feel this way because the person is actively provoking you and deserves a reaction? Or is it a reaction to someone who isn't being malicious, but just has different values / perspective / morals than you do? In the latter case, does it really warrant a reaction, or simply move on and choose to avoid the person? Goodness knows, if I engaged every opportunity, a trip to the break room would take hours. In the former case, I'd expect the mods to keep the provoking jerks in check. Second, (and this is stepping dangerously into word police territory...) if I constantly used the term "bitchy"... it's going to set the tone of conversation, people's perception of me, and influence how they react (see above). It might accurately describe behavior, and I could claim I'm not being gender-specific, but it's a word that's historically derogative toward women. It will start to polarize conversation, or at least color me as having a low opinion of women. If I chose to tread that line, I shouldn't be surprised if this happens. And since we're on linguistics, here's a word whose use has brought down (undeserved?) wrath on more than a few people in the public eye: niggardly. (Gasp!!) It's not the word you think you read. And it doesn't mean what most people think - not even close. Look it up - it means cheap, miserly, stingy. Zero reference to anything racial. But... it *sounds* similar; people will, and most do, hear or read something different than intended. Now, I could insist on using it in my regular vocabulary, standing on my pedestal of linguistic accuracy - or I can accept that it will be forever misunderstood and evoke a negative reaction regardless of my intent, and simply not push that line. That's the smarter call. Point being... you can try to argue your innocence, but when you tread a line with terms that evoke an emotional response in a broad group, don't be surprised if it garners a negative reaction. I have to give you the tip of my cap. You have the first post that has provoked me. I know you felt no guilt in what you wrote, you were just making a point, educating me in your own way. I hope my reply serves to educate you also. I have just come up with a new word to describe your post, “ginormousmansplaining”. I think you can figure out what I mean. So, if you feel “offended”, consider following your own advice and doing a self-check. On your point of linguistics, using the words “bitchy” and “niggardly”, I don’t know, just what the hell is your point? Oh yes of course, it was mansplaining, or in your case “ginormousmansplaining”. Point made. My point being……..…….don’t fucking mansplain. It is insulting. And also I can take the negative reactions this broad a group feels is warranted, because I am not going to sacrifice my dignity if the subject is about something I strongly believe in. P.S. I have always liked and respected you DryCreek. Take this as a friendly disagreement or  ?, it is entirely up to you. Also this was edited by me. It was very harsh before, sort of like nuclear bomb harsh. At the moment I was pissed. And I still am a little upset at your lecture. Sorry if you feel I did not edit enough. P.P.S. JMX the tag on my original name was not ‘builderbob’ from Bob the Builder, but ‘boulderbob’ as in Bob the rock climber. I always thought that meant Boulder Colorado LOL. |
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Post by Admin on Sept 22, 2016 21:01:36 GMT -5
With regard to HelenT and mountainrunner, I think we also need to bear in mind that this site was set up by a few friends from EP who are also coming from SMs and are not any more enlightened than the rest of us. I don't see any particular gender bias in what happened. I think maybe Admin freaked out and overreacted because they were scared of the thread becoming confrontational, and I don't personally believe it was necessary or a good thing. But nor do I think it was an attempt to rebuke or curb their opinions. It was just one person's fear that caused a mess. (Admin, if that isn't fair then please say so.) : this is THE MOST ACCURATE ASSESSMENT of the ENTIRE DEBACLE. Thank you for being so discerning... and for posting it. So unless they have any reason to believe that what happened was personal or prejudiced in some way, I hope they can get past it. I know a lot of people have expressed (both here and in PMs) that they wish they would come back. And I hope they do - I value both of them enormously. I concur, 1000%. |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 22, 2016 21:26:56 GMT -5
DryCreek I have to give you the tip of my cap. You have the first post that has provoked me. I know you felt no guilt in what you wrote, you were just making a point, educating me in your own way. I hope my reply serves to educate you also. I have just come up with a new word to describe your post, “ginormousmansplaining”. I think you can figure out what I mean. So, if you feel “offended”, consider following your own advice and doing a self-check. On your point of linguistics, using the words “bitchy” and “niggardly”, I don’t know, just what the hell is your point? Oh yes of course, it was mansplaining, or in your case “ginormousmansplaining”. Point made. My point being……..…….don’t fucking mansplain. It is insulting. And also I can take the negative reactions this broad a group feels is warranted, because I am not going to sacrifice my dignity if the subject is about something I strongly believe in. P.S. I have always liked and respected you DryCreek . Take this as a friendly disagreement or ?, it is entirely up to you. Also this was edited by me. It was very harsh before, sort of like nuclear bomb harsh. At the moment I was pissed. And I still am a little upset at your lecture. Sorry if you feel I did not edit enough. P.P.S. JMX the tag on my original name was not ‘builderbob’ from Bob the Builder, but ‘boulderbob’ as in Bob the rock climber. @boulderbob... perfect reply! First, congratulations on choosing to be offended. And my post wasn't even peppered with opinion or malice! That just underscores the point that people can and will choose to interpret things completely independent of the writer. Second, I'll choose not to be offended, despite an apparent attempt to insult me. My choice. There's a pattern, which I'll trust you recognize. Now, if you think my monologue was "splainin", I invite you to argue where it was a) factually off-base, which is kinda the premise of someone "talking out of their ass", and b) speaking down to an individual and not just the topic at-hand. On the other hand, if you think my post was just pompous windbagging, you might be right - but, regardless, it would be an entirely valid opinion. As for the point of my two examples, I'll be more specific. "Mansplaining" may be just describing a single individual's behavior, but using a broad brush term that takes a swipe at the entire gender. And let's not kid ourselves - that's not accidental. Not unlike how your adaptation of the word attempted to make an implication. And how my examples weren't about women or racism, but they both give the impression that I'm gender or racially biased, even when that's not the intent. "But I didn't mean it that way" - that's not the point. It sets a tone, a negative one. You can't control how people are going to interpret what you say, but you can sure tempt fate. It's like walking the razor's edge and then complaining when you're caught over the line. Or saying "You're not as fat as you used to be"... no, don't try to pretend that's a compliment. Perhaps that explains my comments better. Cheers, DC |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 22, 2016 21:42:42 GMT -5
gl345. tumbleweed. kalani. - - These above are the names of the last 3 people to join this group. What they are looking for, what contributions they will make to the group in days to come is unknown. , tumbleweed, kalani... Welcome to our normally friendly but dysfunctional family! You've arrived in the middle of a huge pillow fight, so the place is a mess... it's normally much tidier - really! |
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Post by JMX on Sept 22, 2016 21:45:46 GMT -5
Lol DryCreek !!! Zoiks! Nothing like two men - mansplainin' each other! It's like... What's the word? Discussion. Socrates would be proud. |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 22, 2016 21:49:53 GMT -5
"No, JMX , what you really meant to say is... " ;-) |
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Post by unmatched on Sept 22, 2016 23:14:38 GMT -5
Since we are still on mansplaining, I have three thoughts:
1. Every woman here has had some man talk down to them, especially about mechanics or building or finance but probably about almost anything, just because they are a woman. That sucks.
2. There are a whole bunch of people out there who like to talk bullshit about things they know very little about, and still try to sound like an expert. In fact most of us try to do it now and again to make ourselves look better if we think we can get away with it. And it is probably true that men are more prone to doing that than women. But it is definitely not something gender-specific.
3. When points 1 and 2 come together in the same package, it starts to get quite offensive and unpleasant. And at that point mansplaining is a very good word for it.
BUT if somebody is just being a dick or trying to make themselves appear more knowledgeable than they are, that is not the same thing, and using terms like mansplaining to describe it is about as useful as me saying 'hormonal' every time a woman gets upset about something. It is an inaccurate generalisation and carries an inherent gender putdown, as well as an implicit accusation of sexism.
I have yet to notice actual mansplaining happening here. If it has, then can somebody please point it out to me? And if it does in the future can we have a mutual commitment to jumping on it hard? But if it isn't happening, can we drop the subject and stop using the word?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 23, 2016 0:20:10 GMT -5
DryCreek I have to give you the tip of my cap. You have the first post that has provoked me. I know you felt no guilt in what you wrote, you were just making a point, educating me in your own way. I hope my reply serves to educate you also. I have just come up with a new word to describe your post, “ginormousmansplaining”. I think you can figure out what I mean. So, if you feel “offended”, consider following your own advice and doing a self-check. On your point of linguistics, using the words “bitchy” and “niggardly”, I don’t know, just what the hell is your point? Oh yes of course, it was mansplaining, or in your case “ginormousmansplaining”. Point made. My point being……..…….don’t fucking mansplain. It is insulting. And also I can take the negative reactions this broad a group feels is warranted, because I am not going to sacrifice my dignity if the subject is about something I strongly believe in. P.S. I have always liked and respected you DryCreek . Take this as a friendly disagreement or ?, it is entirely up to you. Also this was edited by me. It was very harsh before, sort of like nuclear bomb harsh. At the moment I was pissed. And I still am a little upset at your lecture. Sorry if you feel I did not edit enough. P.P.S. JMX the tag on my original name was not ‘builderbob’ from Bob the Builder, but ‘boulderbob’ as in Bob the rock climber. @boulderbob ... perfect reply! First, congratulations on choosing to be offended. And my post wasn't even peppered with opinion or malice! That just underscores the point that people can and will choose to interpret things completely independent of the writer. Second, I'll choose not to be offended, despite an apparent attempt to insult me. My choice. There's a pattern, which I'll trust you recognize. Now, if you think my monologue was "splainin", I invite you to argue where it was a) factually off-base, which is kinda the premise of someone "talking out of their ass", and b) speaking down to an individual and not just the topic at-hand. On the other hand, if you think my post was just pompous windbagging, you might be right - but, regardless, it would be an entirely valid opinion. As for the point of my two examples, I'll be more specific. "Mansplaining" may be just describing a single individual's behavior, but using a broad brush term that takes a swipe at the entire gender. And let's not kid ourselves - that's not accidental. Not unlike how your adaptation of the word attempted to make an implication. And how my examples weren't about women or racism, but they both give the impression that I'm gender or racially biased, even when that's not the intent. "But I didn't mean it that way" - that's not the point. It sets a tone, a negative one. You can't control how people are going to interpret what you say, but you can sure tempt fate. It's like walking the razor's edge and then complaining when you're caught over the line. Or saying "You're not as fat as you used to be"... no, don't try to pretend that's a compliment. Perhaps that explains my comments better. Cheers, DC ........extremely classy answer. First, I am going to explain why I went on my rant. I feel that all three women were friends. All said they felt they were adversely treated. I have never had a friend leave somewhere on bad terms and not tried to do something to patch things up. But the groups posts were simply "bye" "hugs" "good luck", and these were by people that I know were much closer than I was to HT, MR, and Z. It was like nobody had their back. I felt betrayed and mystified by the groups response or should I say non-response. I stewed over it, got more indignant and launched a rant over the lack of action of any kind. Of course everyone jumped on me because I have kept an old wound open and I did not really properly explain why I was doing it. Which was the 'Point being' that you made. Second, I have to laugh because "pompous windbag" were indeed some of the nicer words I used in my unedited nuclear post. But I concede the validity of (a) none of your facts were off base, all were valid. But Drycreek (b) speaking down to an individual and not just the topic off-hand? Let's just say you made a lot of points and rambled on and I believe it can be argued (and not just by me) that your reply can be perceived as I will gently say 'patronizing' to me. If it was meant (as I think it was) as advice to help me get my foot out of my mouth then I sincerely thank you and wish I had not brought the whole thing up, at least not in the manner that I brought the whole thing up, if you take my meaning. Thank you Drycreek, and I apologize here and now to anyone else my rant may have offended. |
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Post by DryCreek on Sept 23, 2016 0:39:41 GMT -5
@boulderbob - first, no offense taken. And FWIW, my post wasn't directed at, or even triggered by, you but rather the overall topic finally pushing my button to pontificate. Trust me, I know I'm long-winded - just ask my kids. ;-)
I, too, regret when any of our friends here choose to leave, but especially because they felt unwelcome.
I personally wish they had not chosen to leave, and instead stayed and duked it out to shape the future. But I respect their decision; none of us are here under any obligation. Many of us have already dealt with too much conflict in our lives to take on another round here.
Cheers,
DC
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Post by JMX on Sept 23, 2016 0:58:46 GMT -5
@boulderbob - I, for one, am not offended (not that it matters if I was, and you're not even talking to me) but was heartened to see that you acknowledged many of our relationships! We have been friends with them for a very long time. Particularly with MR and HT. Zumbamami, by her own admission in this thread, pulled away from EP so I personally did not remember her from our time there. Many of us had group PMs about the situation before this blew up. You had no way of knowing that. I think if you read through ILIASM on EP (as much as you can sift through the now-defunct site) you will see that the ones of us that landed here were used to a more rigorous discussion. Trolls were rampant and not removed (flagged, sure, but hardly ever removed) and we all pounced on dissenters almost like passing off the baton in a relay race. This site is very tame in comparison. You had no way of knowing that either. It might be a fun read for you though  - thousands and thousands of stories with thousands and thousands of comments ranging from idiotic, to true misogynists, to trolls, to Isis (my favorite fantasy SM fiction), to unbelievable, to sad and real and raw. The last part? They mostly followed here. They endured all of the former too. We all washed up here together - thanks to Admin. We also love new members! I know I do. Of course we are sad to see them go! We just got to express that to them privately and maybe processed it a little quicker than you were able to do. |
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Post by petrushka on Sept 23, 2016 6:32:47 GMT -5
@boulderbob - there are two separate issues. 1.) MR and HT leaving over the thread lockdown and 2.) Z feeling disrespected by some of the men here. We were not privy to the PM or what transpired, when she got called a "feminazi". Z has deleted her account before, also over a PM in what she described as a stalker. The membership does not know how either transpired. Are her feelings valid? Of curse they are. She had them. Is her choice to leave valid? Absolutely. I would bet dollars to donuts that if you took a vote of the females here, the majority of us would say we have not experienced what Z has experienced (at least to a degree) and therefore don't understand the beef. The calling out of hurt feelings for mansplainin' (in an attempt to curtail it) would only serve to water-down everyone's responses or story posts in the future. A thread - like this - educating on mansplainin'? Sure. A general murky rule of thumb to keep it from happening? Ridiculous. We all have people in our lives that we know or don't know very well, all with different views and applications of those views. We can choose to engage them or not. Same here. We can scroll down and not engage if we wish, or engage if we wish to do that. There is also a block button. This place would lose valuable insights if we all collectively decided to walk on egg shells and tiptoed around everyone's feelings. Especially considering we all have emotional roller coasters of our own, and are all sensitive in different ways at any given time. No one is going to edit you or delete your comments. That only ever happened on the "vile Richard" thread. As if 'walking on eggshells' wasn't what most of us here have had ENTIRELY too much of in our lives. Hear, hear!
Incidentally, my experience of Z is the same as your perception. Oh, happy enough to be flirty and playful with some men here, but the moment a dude seriously opined something she was not on board with, the shutters came down and there was offense taken. I personally smelled more than a whiff of misandry. But frankly, I have a broad back and there are a lot of things out there in the world that bother me a hell of a lot more. Like censorship <snark, snark>. Anyway, I've already made my views of that clear in another post. I exercised my [block button] months ago. I go with JMX here, and really don't think I agree with @wingman 's conclusions that we men need to hitch up our pants, pipe down and get the egshell-walking sneakers out. The odd freak may blow in here (I never saw the ignominious Richard post(s)) but practically everybody here is generally very empathetic and respectful in my perception. I know damn well what 'mansplaining' is and don't need to have it explained to me <sic!>, and it's an annoying habit at best (and yeesh, I can put up with someone like that for a few hours, but would not want to live with someone who does that continuously) but - that there are folk like that does not justifiably give license to tar every bloke who has a different opinion with the 'mansplaining' brush. In fact I see the latter as worse ... the former is some idiot talking out of his arse, the latter is a veiled, passive aggressive ad personam attack when used in this manner. I can discredit you at any moment by painting, what you are saying, as 'mansplaining', discussion closed. Have a good day. Cut you off at the knees. You ought to feel like shit now and aren't you ashamed of yourself? It's no different than saying e.g.: "Have you stopped beating your _____ yet?" |
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Post by petrushka on Sept 23, 2016 6:49:42 GMT -5
Since we are still on mansplaining, I have three thoughts: 1. Every woman here has had some man talk down to them, especially about mechanics or building or finance but probably about almost anything, just because they are a woman. That sucks. It does that. No question at all, there's misogynistic dinosaurs out there who think that women don't have two braincells to rub together and need to have it explained how to
tie their shoelaces.
2. There are a whole bunch of people out there who like to talk bullshit about things they know very little about, and still try to sound like an expert. In fact most of us try to do it now and again to make ourselves look better if we think we can get away with it. And it is probably true that men are more prone to doing that than women. But it is definitely not something gender-specific. Maybe it's due to the kind of people I tend to hang out with, but I know about equally as many women who will talk out of their arse on subjects they haven't a clue about,
trying to 'educate' the rest of us, as I know men who do that. More, in fact, but that's merely by chance: I have a lot fewer male friends.
3. When points 1 and 2 come together in the same package, it starts to get quite offensive and unpleasant. And at that point mansplaining is a very good word for it. BUT if somebody is just being a dick or trying to make themselves appear more knowledgeable than they are, that is not the same thing, and using terms like mansplaining to describe it is about as useful as me saying 'hormonal' every time a woman gets upset about something. It is an inaccurate generalisation and carries an inherent gender putdown, as well as an implicit accusation of sexism.THAT! |
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?, it is entirely up to you. Also this was edited by me. It was very harsh before, sort of like nuclear bomb harsh. At the moment I was pissed. And I still am a little upset at your lecture. Sorry if you feel I did not edit enough.
- thousands and thousands of stories with thousands and thousands of comments ranging from idiotic, to true misogynists, to trolls, to Isis (my favorite fantasy SM fiction), to unbelievable, to sad and real and raw. The last part? They mostly followed here. They endured all of the former too. We all washed up here together - thanks to Admin. We also love new members! I know I do. 
