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Post by Apocrypha on Dec 8, 2020 10:46:05 GMT -5
It is most certainly NOT a moot point at the closest and most simple degree. I think people have terribly misunderstood that advice. The reason you are not having sex in your marriage is because your partner does not wish to have sex with you. The reason your partner isn't having sex in your marriage is because she does not wish to have sex with you.
The reason your partner doesn't wish to have sex with you enters the realm of why chasing and the rabbit hole of "why chasing". Those are your partner's reasons and not yours. There's no work to be done on the part of the refuser to reach this easy default conclusion. It's the refusing party's work, if they choose it, to articulate a a diagnosis and help with a remedy - but they likely won't. There's no need to overcomplicate all this from a practical perspective by why chasing very far past that first point. Whatever it is though, it's once removed from the immediate reason. Follow it with me, using your example: " She doesn't want to have sex with me." vs " She doesn't want to have sex with me because she never liked sex with anyone and has been lying for years until she got her ring." No difference in terms of what it means. Does it look to stupid? Oversimplified? Compare it vs the usual chaffe, where your more elaborate explanation sites : " She doesn't want to have sex with me."
vs too busy, too bored
is on her period, about to have her period, just had her period, is fertile
too upset, or doesn't want to spoil a nice night together with something risky - lets cuddle
needs more space, or isn't seeing enough of you
too fat, too skinny, not feeling sexy, not feeling you are sexy
too old
isn't sex obsessed - is that all you think about?
you did something X years ago - someone else X years ago did something
we just HAD sex last night, yesterday, a week ago, a month ago, a season ago, a year ago
needs to just do this chore/thing
Skipping past the "She doesn't want to have sex with me" reason about the lack of sex in the marriage ends up like an alcoholic making excuses. It becomes "She is unable to have sex with me because of X." Then you get to be a spouse enduring in a noble cause - something that's happening to the two of you together, rather than the one person she definitely didn't want to have sex with. I agree with you on "why chasing" past that point - a million reasons and proofs and projects can bloom past that point - but those are almost certainly out of your control and ability to remedy with celibacy on this scale. Those are your partner's reasons - and they may or may not do the work to figure that out. Where it intersects with you is "Because my partner doesn't want to do that with me." That reason is worth pausing on to let it soak in. So... "Everything in the marriage is great except that my partner doesn't want to have sex with me"? I'm missing your point and I know you have one. Is it that people dropping in saying "Everything is great except we're not having sex" aren't fully aware that its due to the spouse not wanting to, for whatever the reason may be? That awareness might well move them along their path to one of the big three solutions Stay, Outsource, or Leave. The added layer that a desire to avoid sex does add clarity to the problem a refused spouse faces. Was that what you were getting at? Cuz I'll concur. Or... maybe I need to ask you to rephrase. I'm talking about the significance of the the difference between what is true - a partner not wanting to have sex with you - vs what is unknown and fabricated "a partner wishing to avoid sex in general. In a celibate/monogamous deal, it's easy to pass the former off as the latter. The countervailing proof only happens after their affair or after the marriage ends. It's about "have sex with me" vs "want sex with me" - where the wanting produces the having. My point is that the limiting belief that occurs so often in this forum is that their partner really does want sex with them but can't or really would want to have sex with them, but that they have somehow forgotten, or become distracted, or are unaware of their duty of care somehow within a marriage, or afflicted by some accident of biology, or some dislodged past trauma floating to the surface, or insert reason. "If only X, then my partner would be able to have the sex with me that would make our marriage happy". Thus they get to be "on their partner's side" in facing this together, as well as demonstrating their virtue and worthiness of sex to their partner by sticking through the celibacy afflicting them both. It's a limiting belief to the people who come here because it causes people to treat the absence of sex in the marriage as they would "the presence of cancer" or some other medical affliction, rather than treating it as language in which the aversive partner is making a CLEAR statement about how they view their spouse, or how they view the condition of being married to their spouse. Because having sex with a partner who doesn't want to have sex with you and who doesn't see you as a viable sexual partner - for the rest of your lives - will not make a happy marriage. It's likely to increasingly turn her off you and make her hate you. It's plainly there, but almost impossible to see when you are in it. Much easier to see in the aftermath, or in the case of whatever you remember from your single/non-married dating life. Imagine you are dating someone, but she doesn't ever have sex with you. You are taking her out - doing things - etc - but you dont' have a sexual relationship. What is the nature of your relationship? How does she clearly see you? If you want intimacy in your life - a marriage - what must you clearly do to move forward? |
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Post by mirrororchid on Dec 8, 2020 21:27:13 GMT -5
I'm talking about the significance of the the difference between what is true - a partner not wanting to have sex with you - vs what is unknown and fabricated "a partner wishing to avoid sex in general. In a celibate/monogamous deal, it's easy to pass the former off as the latter. The countervailing proof only happens after their affair or after the marriage ends. It's about "have sex with me" vs "want sex with me" - where the wanting produces the having. My point is that the limiting belief that occurs so often in this forum is that their partner really does want sex with them but can't or really would want to have sex with them, but that they have somehow forgotten, or become distracted, or are unaware of their duty of care somehow within a marriage, or afflicted by some accident of biology, or some dislodged past trauma floating to the surface, or insert reason. "If only X, then my partner would be able to have the sex with me that would make our marriage happy". Thus they get to be "on their partner's side" in facing this together, as well as demonstrating their virtue and worthiness of sex to their partner by sticking through the celibacy afflicting them both. It's a limiting belief to the people who come here because it causes people to treat the absence of sex in the marriage as they would "the presence of cancer" or some other medical affliction, rather than treating it as language in which the aversive partner is making a CLEAR statement about how they view their spouse, or how they view the condition of being married to their spouse. Because having sex with a partner who doesn't want to have sex with you and who doesn't see you as a viable sexual partner - for the rest of your lives - will not make a happy marriage. It's likely to increasingly turn her off you and make her hate you. Given the low occurrence of "fixes", the frequency of "wanting to avoid" without an actionable reason for the avoidance seems high. (not actionable either through a lack of communication of the reason, the delusion that the reason is important and unfixable, or a genuinely unworkable problem [to include indifference about fixing the lack of desire, if it were possible]) I suppose lack of intimacy is one form of misery and the torture of caring deeply about elucidating a reason to "fix" is an unwelcome addition, made endless if there is no actionable reason. Given I've had a lengthy reset, I may be victim of hopium still and I need only wait for the shoe to drop. I may yet run upon an eventual end to my wife's accommodation and face off against a desire to avoid it. I'll bear your prophetic words in mind then. |
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heelots
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Post by heelots on Oct 13, 2021 12:56:00 GMT -5
Old thread, but a great read. My wife moved out of our bedroom 3-4 years ago. First she slept on the couch, then later the recliner where she sleeps now.
Honestly, nothing had been happening in that bed for years before she moved out of there anyway. By the time she moved out I was already angry and bitter and had long before given up on even laying a finger on her, let alone suggesting anything sexual. So being perfectly honest I never said a thing and counted my blessings for having the bed to myself.
As months, then years went by I was glad to have the privacy to see to my needs.
About a month ago, she found two empty bottles of lotion under the bed and asked why they were there. I told her I didn't know anything about them. She knew, and quietly seethed, but I didn't take the bait. I just let her spout off as she chose until she finally shut her pie hole.
Yup, been in separate rooms for years and thankful for it. Our marraige was toast years ago. I hope she never moves back into the bed. If she does I have already decided to move into the old rickety bed in the unfinished corner of our basement. I absolutely will never share a bed with her again, she just doesn't know it!🤣
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Post by Handy on Oct 13, 2021 13:28:46 GMT -5
heelots, part of your long term problems have been trying to smooths over to try to avoid troubling conflicts. You could have said, those lotion bottles were mine as a substitute for the real sex I wasn't having with you. You might not like sex with me but I am normal, sex is normal and I needed the relief.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 13, 2021 15:43:19 GMT -5
Heelots: “ onths, then years went by I was glad to have the privacy to see to my needs.
About a month ago, she found two empty bottles of lotion under the bed and asked why they were there. I told her I didn't know anything about them. She knew, and quietly seethed, but I didn't take the bait. I just let her spout off as she chose until she finally shut her pie hole.”
You should have told her the truth. Masturbation is normal. You seem to view her with contempt. Why stay with her?
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Post by deadzone75 on Oct 13, 2021 22:58:44 GMT -5
Old thread, but a great read. My wife moved out of our bedroom 3-4 years ago. First she slept on the couch, then later the recliner where she sleeps now. Honestly, nothing had been happening in that bed for years before she moved out of there anyway. By the time she moved out I was already angry and bitter and had long before given up on even laying a finger on her, let alone suggesting anything sexual. So being perfectly honest I never said a thing and counted my blessings for having the bed to myself. As months, then years went by I was glad to have the privacy to see to my needs. About a month ago, she found two empty bottles of lotion under the bed and asked why they were there. I told her I didn't know anything about them. She knew, and quietly seethed, but I didn't take the bait. I just let her spout off as she chose until she finally shut her pie hole. Yup, been in separate rooms for years and thankful for it. Our marraige was toast years ago. I hope she never moves back into the bed. If she does I have already decided to move into the old rickety bed in the unfinished corner of our basement. I absolutely will never share a bed with her again, she just doesn't know it!🤣 Under the bed? I kept a giant bottle of Curel by a box of Kleenex, right next to the computer. I always was discreet about the act, but I didn't exactly practice subtlety about the act happening...every night. Who knows if she was smart enough to put it together. She might have sooner believed I was ingesting it before... hmmm...rubbing lotion on his penis? Why on earth would a person do that?? |
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heelots
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Post by heelots on Oct 14, 2021 9:42:37 GMT -5
Exactly,my wife rants about anyone using porn is sick and twisted. Her thoughts are,I assume that since she is a shrivelled up prune with zero sex drive that somehow automatically extends me and I am supposed to be happy living in a sexless marriage with zero outlet and somehow I am not supposed to have natural urges. My message to her was be thankful I use porn to meet my needs, most people, men and women alike either divorce, or cheat with others which I have never considered. If I had a wife that was a willing partner and not just a dead, pity sex fuck for a partner there would never have been a need for porn in the first place. I don't even have a pity fuck partner, I have a no sex zero interest partner that illogically expects me to be the same! What an idiot.
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Post by northstarmom on Oct 14, 2021 10:06:40 GMT -5
Heelots. Why do you stay with such a woman?
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 14, 2021 13:52:19 GMT -5
Exactly,my wife rants about anyone using porn is sick and twisted. Her thoughts are,I assume that since she is a shrivelled up prune with zero sex drive that somehow automatically extends me and I am supposed to be happy living in a sexless marriage with zero outlet and somehow I am not supposed to have natural urges. My message to her was be thankful I use porn to meet my needs, Does it meet your needs, heelots? I don't get the sense that it does. It's an interesting question to examine and test in a wider context. From experience on both sides of the sexless relationship coin, I suspect that there is some nuance to levels of sexual satisfaction that are satisfied in porn and those that are left unattended. Take, prison sex, for example, or the frequent sex between straight men within heavily segregated societies - such as in Pakistan. You'd think it would be easier and less risky for straight men to just look at prawn or masturbate. Or, in a time of COVID dating, the amount of readiness for sexting - for example. Why go to the trouble? I think it's because people want their sexual expression to matter, externally - for their participation to be important or appreciated on any level - to another person. Porn is to sex as soda pop is empty calories (soda pop) is to dieting. Tastes great and takes the edge off, but isn't going to satisfy the deeper hunger. There's no connection in porn, not even a temporarily or meaningless connection. Consider an accident victim dying on the road - can't speak. A stranger holds his/her hand as they wait. They don't know each other - it isn't even sexual - but the touch has a meaning that is mutually understood: you are both there together in that moment and you are experiencing this intimate thing. What words are going to encapsulate that experience? |
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heelots
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Post by heelots on Oct 14, 2021 14:52:17 GMT -5
Exactly,my wife rants about anyone using porn is sick and twisted. Her thoughts are,I assume that since she is a shrivelled up prune with zero sex drive that somehow automatically extends me and I am supposed to be happy living in a sexless marriage with zero outlet and somehow I am not supposed to have natural urges. My message to her was be thankful I use porn to meet my needs, Does it meet your needs, heelots? I don't get the sense that it does. It's an interesting question to examine and test in a wider context. From experience on both sides of the sexless relationship coin, I suspect that there is some nuance to levels of sexual satisfaction that are satisfied in porn and those that are left unattended. Take, prison sex, for example, or the frequent sex between straight men within heavily segregated societies - such as in Pakistan. You'd think it would be easier and less risky for straight men to just look at prawn or masturbate. Or, in a time of COVID dating, the amount of readiness for sexting - for example. Why go to the trouble? I think it's because people want their sexual expression to matter, externally - for their participation to be important or appreciated on any level - to another person. Porn is to sex as soda pop is empty calories (soda pop) is to dieting. Tastes great and takes the edge off, but isn't going to satisfy the deeper hunger. There's no connection in porn, not even a temporarily or meaningless connection. Consider an accident victim dying on the road - can't speak. A stranger holds his/her hand as they wait. They don't know each other - it isn't even sexual - but the touch has a meaning that is mutually understood: you are both there together in that moment and you are experiencing this intimate thing. What words are going to encapsulate that experience? It is certainly much less than ideal, and in no way what I signed up for when we got married. I guess I would best describe it as nothing better than a release measure that helps maintain sanity and general mood. It has also been enough to prevent me from looking to others outside of my marriage. No, I don't like it, I never have, but given my situation and the fact that for now anyway I will not divorce, and never cheat, it has been the only thing I have identified to give rapid relief, and harm no one. It is what it is |
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heelots
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Post by heelots on Oct 14, 2021 14:57:50 GMT -5
Old thread, but a great read. My wife moved out of our bedroom 3-4 years ago. First she slept on the couch, then later the recliner where she sleeps now. Honestly, nothing had been happening in that bed for years before she moved out of there anyway. By the time she moved out I was already angry and bitter and had long before given up on even laying a finger on her, let alone suggesting anything sexual. So being perfectly honest I never said a thing and counted my blessings for having the bed to myself. As months, then years went by I was glad to have the privacy to see to my needs. About a month ago, she found two empty bottles of lotion under the bed and asked why they were there. I told her I didn't know anything about them. She knew, and quietly seethed, but I didn't take the bait. I just let her spout off as she chose until she finally shut her pie hole. Yup, been in separate rooms for years and thankful for it. Our marraige was toast years ago. I hope she never moves back into the bed. If she does I have already decided to move into the old rickety bed in the unfinished corner of our basement. I absolutely will never share a bed with her again, she just doesn't know it!🤣 Under the bed? I kept a giant bottle of Curel by a box of Kleenex, right next to the computer. I always was discreet about the act, but I didn't exactly practice subtlety about the act happening...every night. Who knows if she was smart enough to put it together. She might have sooner believed I was ingesting it before... hmmm...rubbing lotion on his penis? Why on earth would a person do that??Kept it under the bed because wife is never in there and it is out of sight and usually no question. On that occasion W was looking for something lost. W is like a bird dog when looking for lost items so her finding them did not surprise me. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Oct 15, 2021 10:19:22 GMT -5
Does it meet your needs, heelots ? I don't get the sense that it does. It's an interesting question to examine and test in a wider context. From experience on both sides of the sexless relationship coin, I suspect that there is some nuance to levels of sexual satisfaction that are satisfied in porn and those that are left unattended. Take, prison sex, for example, or the frequent sex between straight men within heavily segregated societies - such as in Pakistan. You'd think it would be easier and less risky for straight men to just look at prawn or masturbate. Or, in a time of COVID dating, the amount of readiness for sexting - for example. Why go to the trouble? I think it's because people want their sexual expression to matter, externally - for their participation to be important or appreciated on any level - to another person. Porn is to sex as soda pop is empty calories (soda pop) is to dieting. Tastes great and takes the edge off, but isn't going to satisfy the deeper hunger. There's no connection in porn, not even a temporarily or meaningless connection. Consider an accident victim dying on the road - can't speak. A stranger holds his/her hand as they wait. They don't know each other - it isn't even sexual - but the touch has a meaning that is mutually understood: you are both there together in that moment and you are experiencing this intimate thing. What words are going to encapsulate that experience? It is certainly much less than ideal, and in no way what I signed up for when we got married. I guess I would best describe it as nothing better than a release measure that helps maintain sanity and general mood. It has also been enough to prevent me from looking to others outside of my marriage. No, I don't like it, I never have, but given my situation and the fact that for now anyway I will not divorce, and never cheat, it has been the only thing I have identified to give rapid relief, and harm no one. It is what it is Oh, I am not bagging on you for the prawn - I have no problem with it. I'm focusing on the unmet needs and the little lies we tell ourselves - such as this meets our needs when we know it does not. I'll tell you when I checked out of our third marriage counsellor in my own deal. It was when the counsellor suggested a program to my wife in which I'd never put focus on sexual expression in our marriage for an indefinite period. Minimum 6 months (I'd already tried that). My wife asked HER (not me), "But what if he has an urge?" The counsellor responded on my behalf - as if I was not there - "Oh, don't worry about that. He'll take care of it himself with a tissue, and flush it down the toilet." Not kidding - that's exactly what she said. She wasn't wrong, necessarily. But hearing her treat my sexuality and its place in our relationship as an excretory chore - best suited for the shitter - made me realize the utter contempt in which my sexual expression - and me - was being held. Hearing this as the two of them treated it like a joke, laughing with each other as this realization dawned on me, made me This counsellor helped me in a few ways accidentally and in spite of herself. I pay attention to the things people say when they aren't paying attention. In this case, I had been confused by occasional mixed signals from my wife. Sometimes, few and far between, she'd seem way into having sex, but she seemed oddly disconnected or absent from me when she was having it. I realized eventually - she was just horny. Explained her affair as well, and informed my criticism of the "our celibate spouses are aesexual" theory. This realization helped me to deeply accept the sad reality and trajectory of our relationship, long before she was. |
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Post by heelots on Oct 26, 2021 12:21:04 GMT -5
heelots, part of your long term problems have been trying to smooths over to try to avoid troubling conflicts. You could have said, those lotion bottles were mine as a substitute for the real sex I wasn't having with you. You might not like sex with me but I am normal, sex is normal and I needed the relief. Before all was said and done, she came back and opened up that can of worms and I told her that by not having a wife that was willing to have sex with me I was left to deal with my natural urges on my own which were not going to simply disappear due to her refusal which left me to either take matters in hand, or step out of the marriage, which was not an option so really, she should probably be happy that I use the restraint that most others in my situation probably would not! I told her most would either choose divorce, or cheating, which I never considered so I was making no apology for seeing to a biological need that she clearly refused to fulfill so just get over it. It was not like I was waving that in her face, but was in fact being private about that and keeping it to myself so she could expect no shame or apology from me for her refusal to be a wife! |
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Post by h on Oct 26, 2021 12:33:05 GMT -5
heelots Good for you standing up for yourself! You haven't done anything wrong and have no reason to feel guilty. What was her response?
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Post by Handy on Oct 26, 2021 12:56:50 GMT -5
Heelots
I told her that by not having a wife that was willing to have sex with me I was left to deal with my natural urges on my own which were not going to simply disappear due to her refusal which left me to either take matters in hand, or step out of the marriage, which was not an option so really, she should probably be happy that I use the restraint that most others in my situation probably would not!
A bit of humor! I read that gram crackers and corn flakes were invented to reduce sexual urges. My personal results did not validate the same hypothesis.
Tell your W that you tried gram crackers and corn flakes and they did not work, just for fun and see her reaction.
Like I said, humor intended.
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