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Post by h on Feb 14, 2020 10:06:49 GMT -5
Guys, I have to say, I think a lot of women marry men for money! As a woman who's always tried to be responsible and work and help pay my way, I find that extremely disgusting and distressing. I just find it interesting that men put up with such financially irresponsible wives in this day and age. Not all women are princesses. Even women who don't work can be thrifty and save money instead of expecting the man to pay for everything. Anyway, most women do work. At least after the kids are grown. So I would suggest finding a working woman for your future marriages, or at least one who isn't so darn spoiled. For those religiously inclined, this sounds an awful lot like the "Wife of Noble Character" described in Proverbs 31. |
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dd
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Post by dd on Feb 14, 2020 23:43:24 GMT -5
Guys, I have to say, I think a lot of women marry men for money! As a woman who's always tried to be responsible and work and help pay my way, I find that extremely disgusting and distressing. I just find it interesting that men put up with such financially irresponsible wives in this day and age. Not all women are princesses. Even women who don't work can be thrifty and save money instead of expecting the man to pay for everything. Anyway, most women do work. At least after the kids are grown. So I would suggest finding a working woman for your future marriages, or at least one who isn't so darn spoiled. In our case she didn't marry for money since i didn't have a job when we met. However since becoming far more stable financially, it changed some. We figured a split a few years ago where a portion of my income was used for her to buy house goods, kids food and clothes etc. I pay for the mortgages, (we have a rental property), bills, unexpected costs, etc. One time she mentioned I wouldn't want to divorce because financially it would be worse. I said, actually, it would be better for me because I might end up paying you a bit more but you would need to pay a mortgage payment from that. After mentioning I was moving to the other bedroom, she's been friendlier to me but she did have a rough week at work, so I'm trying to support her through that as she gets used to the new job. |
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Post by angeleyes65 on Feb 19, 2020 9:40:29 GMT -5
dd welcome. That sounds horrible with that many rules in would rather go without sex.... Wait I did for 14 years! Well with my spouse anyway. Started out sourcing after year 3. I was not one for wanting sex if he was just taking one for the team. Also not good with rejection so I just didn't intiate after awhile. If they aren't interested and not enjoying it and it's more hurtful than satisfying I would rather take care of myself. Sorry you are in this situation hopefully you can find peace with it or find your way out. I'm on the other side and it is so much better. Never to late to enjoy life.
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dd
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Post by dd on Mar 6, 2020 23:37:32 GMT -5
This year is going by without events. She has started a job which has changed hours some.
I have a good flexible job making a good income and often work from home. Since my job is some management stuff, at times it doesn't look like I'm real busy.
She has recently suggested I look for a different job that pays more. She has house projects she feels are emergency level (which aren't, they are nice-to-haves), but regardless, it's a point of contention.
With her off for a couple days, and after being rejected the last couple times, I thought there might be an opportunity since it would fall within the past established rules, and I wanted to make sure I wasn't the one giving up on trying.
However it was a dead no. Stopped before I could get close and I asked "no, now?" or "no,tonight" or "no, when?" It was definitely not now or tonight. (So far we are 0 for the year).
I left the room with an agitated "sorry I asked" and went downstairs. Sat for a minute, went back up and said "We're getting to the point where you are now being mean" to essentially point out this isn't working despite my efforts.
It's not the way we wanted to start a weekend, but I need to start painting the picture that I'm going to go a different way at some point so I can live my own life.
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dd
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Post by dd on Mar 8, 2020 21:43:52 GMT -5
Over the last couple days I've been doing some reading, and I think I'm a "pleaser" which got me into this spot.
Whether intentionally or not, she's been controlling me. Withholding my approval as much as I seek it.
She often complains about things I don't do. Before we met, I did my own laundry and she took it over, and I never asked her to. Well, add a couple kids and me working full time, she's more less done that. I like to cook and I do that. Probably not half the time, but enough. Well, when I do, I use too many dishes. Too many pots and pans to clean. Or if I make something for the kids, she wonders why I went through the trouble. On the weekend when she worked I made lasagna from scratch with a new cauliflower recipe, salad, and I tried making homemade dinner rolls. She ate very little and didn't say anything positive about my effort or a word that the food was decent.
Going back to the laundry, when I do it now, it takes me a lot longer than it does her, and since she buys the kids clothes, she knows who's stuff is whose. I sit there and have to compare sizes of stuff to get the right guess as I start folding and putting stuff away only to get some wrong.
I guess my point is, I'm not the "sit in the garage drinking beer and never lift a finger in the house type."
I often compliment her on her cooking, but she withholds any praise. She feels I shouldn't need it. "Can you just be happy without it? Why do you always need affirmation?"
Also in the past if I wanted to do things on my own, or with my family, she would phrase it "you should spend more time with the kids".
I've at some point coached each of my kids in their athletics, and never missed a game unless I could not be there due to work. (one summer I was traveling some). We are constantly around them when they aren't in school. I'm hardly a non-present father. But this is another control tactic of hers.
She complains about me not cleaning enough, etc. But I've told her if you have things you want me to take care of, make a list and I'll do it. I'm handy, and when there are things to fix, I usually knock them all out in a weekend unless it's something larger where I don't know if it's going to escalate into a bigger problem.
One of those recently was a bathroom. We had an area where water from the shower was causing issues. Well, I didn't know if I was going to have to replace drywall or not, and possibly tile. I also didn't know if I could get a paint match.
Well, a couple months ago I dove in and fixed the drywall, and tried matching the paint. It was close, but noticeable to the trained eye. When she came home that day, all she said about the fixed bathroom (and the hangers she wanted hung up) was: "The paint doesn't match. We can't leave it like that". So the next day I painted the whole bathroom.
We had two birthday parties this weekend. Her mom's which we hosted Saturday, and a birthday on my side today. She is super friendly, outgoing and patient with EVERYONE but me. Her mom's situation is a bit of a mess, and her family sounded chaotic growing up so she took control of her own life and when dealing with them, we can have people messing up our house and she smiles through it "no big deal" attitude, but then my anxiety grows when they leave because she's spending the next day cleaning everything and I'm afraid if I do one thing wrong, I'm going to get reprimanded.
After telling her she was mean the other night which was the best thing I could come up with to describe how bad things are getting, she slept in a guest room that night and last night. Tonight she's back in our bed. A few minutes ago she came down to say goodnight and give me a "half hug" while I was sitting by the computer. This is a different behavior for her so she knows things aren't the same. I'm waiting for us to have one-on-one time soon where I'll essentially say I can no longer handle the way she controls me.
I think she'll want to go to counseling. But I kind of feel like there's nothing more I can change myself. If it takes more work from me to please her, I don't think I have the energy or will for it. I've been trying for the last 15 years from asking in different ways to not asking at all. Things have only gotten worse and I'm pretty sure she can't change, and she definitely can't change soon enough I'm afraid without causing other stresses.
I worry about my kids if I leave before a college plan, but I feel if I find the right person afterwards, my kids would see what a happy dad would be.
In the past I thought things will be better when the kids are older and we travel on our own. We'll fly someplace fun and check into the hotel room, and have fun sex while stepping away from life for a couple hours, but with her, this idea of fun sex is simply never going to happen. If I want that dream of a care-free vacation with a hint of sexual tension mixed in at some point, it's a life I have to make for myself.
I feel I need to tell her that at this point, I know I will leave, but haven't figured out when but I can't envision being with her in 10-12 years from now.
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Post by baza on Mar 9, 2020 2:59:38 GMT -5
Been reading your posts since December 2017 Brother dd . It all reads like getting your focus off your missus and your past - and getting firmly focused on yourself and your future - would be a good move. You aren't going to be able to sort your missus' shit out - that's her job if she was so inclined. But you can start sorting your own shit out. |
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Post by alwaysdenied on Mar 10, 2020 7:28:47 GMT -5
In the past I thought things will be better when the kids are older and we travel on our own. We'll fly someplace fun and check into the hotel room, and have fun sex while stepping away from life for a couple hours, but with her, this idea of fun sex is simply never going to happen. If I want that dream of a care-free vacation with a hint of sexual tension mixed in at some point, it's a life I have to make for myself. I feel I need to tell her that at this point, I know I will leave, but haven't figured out when but I can't envision being with her in 10-12 years from now.I understand this completely. At first, I was like.... a vacation will fix everything. I HAD to because she even said it would. Right now she was just too tense, etc. But if we could go on some marvelous cruise or big beach home, she could just relax and the sex would flow multiple times a day. Sex is something that just happens effortlessly in her head somewhere in the future. Once I realized a vacation didn't/wouldn't fix anything and in fact would make her even more high strung with the whole anxiety of getting through customs, flying, getting on a boat, getting through traffic to a beach house. I don't even bother. The bad part isn't that she's awful all the time. It would be completely easy to leave if that were the case. It's that there is enough sanity and makings of a regular life intertwined with sessions of rage and nastiness that make me realize this will never change.
I am also looking at 4-5 years when our last son is gone off to college and thinking this isn't really the person I want to be with anymore.
I've come to realize it's not necessarily about the sex than just everything being controlled by her emotions. It's just that sex is the main area it showed up first because it was too obvious since you can't really 'fake' it except she was starfish style. |
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dd
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Age Range: 41-45
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Post by dd on Mar 10, 2020 9:12:18 GMT -5
In the past I thought things will be better when the kids are older and we travel on our own. We'll fly someplace fun and check into the hotel room, and have fun sex while stepping away from life for a couple hours, but with her, this idea of fun sex is simply never going to happen. If I want that dream of a care-free vacation with a hint of sexual tension mixed in at some point, it's a life I have to make for myself. I feel I need to tell her that at this point, I know I will leave, but haven't figured out when but I can't envision being with her in 10-12 years from now. I understand this completely. At first, I was like.... a vacation will fix everything. I HAD to because she even said it would. Right now she was just too tense, etc. But if we could go on some marvelous cruise or big beach home, she could just relax and the sex would flow multiple times a day. Sex is something that just happens effortlessly in her head somewhere in the future.
Once I realized a vacation didn't/wouldn't fix anything and in fact would make her even more high strung with the whole anxiety of getting through customs, flying, getting on a boat, getting through traffic to a beach house. I don't even bother. The bad part isn't that she's awful all the time. It would be completely easy to leave if that were the case. It's that there is enough sanity and makings of a regular life intertwined with sessions of rage and nastiness that make me realize this will never change.
I am also looking at 4-5 years when our last son is gone off to college and thinking this isn't really the person I want to be with anymore.
I've come to realize it's not necessarily about the sex than just everything being controlled by her emotions. It's just that sex is the main area it showed up first because it was too obvious since you can't really 'fake' it except she was starfish style. We've always vacationed with the kids. One time 10 years ago we did a short trip as a couple and once since then. There used to be sex "one time" for the vacation. But the last few that did not happen. It's not just a sex thing though. It's any appreciation towards me. Yesterday we exchanged email and I laid out how things are not going well and the kids see how you treat me and that no matter how clean the house is, she will find dust on the floor to get upset at me about. (metaphor in general). She wants to try therapy or counseling. She might get some on her own. She was thinking about it since the other night when I said she was mean. We're always very civil, seldom yell, but she's used that to control me. I've had a couple times where I raised my voice in anger, and that's been held against me. But calling her mean seemed to hit her. She thinks she might need counseling or therapy on her own which is probably good. I don't see how much I can change with therapy to make our relationship better, but I'll try. I'm skeptical she'll "let go" of the things that are bothering her. She said she has trust issues dating back years ago with me. She can't seem to forgive those. When she talked about it previously, she said it was mainly how I didn't help enough with the kids when they were small, but it could be more. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 10, 2020 12:43:54 GMT -5
The good things about her, she's incredibly reasonable and normally respectful. We're both respectful of each other, except when it comes to sex of course. It seems like she feels her ignoring my intimacy needs is like me missing the laundry hamper with my socks. (just an example, we don't have a laundry issue there). She's not ignoring your needs. She's obviously well aware. She is trapped in the same impossible box as you. She's either not into this marriage at all, or not into you, sexually (and a marriage as opposed to a household, is somewhat contingent on that). Her need is to avoid having sex with someone who she doesn't see as a sexual partner. She hasn't forgotten how to have sex or want it. Your need to have sex with your intended partner. She does not want it with you. There's lots of people you don't want to have sex with, that you'd avoid it with if you could. That's how she feels in this circumstance. It's unlikely to change - which leaves you both in a near celibate deadlock. But it isn't a matter of learned etiquette that she's missing somehow. She's actively overriding her own drive. |
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dd
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Post by dd on Mar 10, 2020 14:15:36 GMT -5
The good things about her, she's incredibly reasonable and normally respectful. We're both respectful of each other, except when it comes to sex of course. It seems like she feels her ignoring my intimacy needs is like me missing the laundry hamper with my socks. (just an example, we don't have a laundry issue there). She's not ignoring your needs. She's obviously well aware. She is trapped in the same impossible box as you. She's either not into this marriage at all, or not into you, sexually (and a marriage as opposed to a household, is somewhat contingent on that). Her need is to avoid having sex with someone who she doesn't see as a sexual partner. She hasn't forgotten how to have sex or want it. Your need to have sex with your intended partner. She does not want it with you. There's lots of people you don't want to have sex with, that you'd avoid it with if you could. That's how she feels in this circumstance. It's unlikely to change - which leaves you both in a near celibate deadlock. But it isn't a matter of learned etiquette that she's missing somehow. She's actively overriding her own drive. How do you know if someone has or hasn't wanted to have sex anymore on their own vs wanting to have sex with a specific person. I feel she just doesn't want to have sex first of all. Then additionally, she doesn't want to with me because at times she doesn't want me to be happy or "too happy". I feel she's largely non-sexual. I don't think it was ever a big thing for her. I think she knew it was something that her role had to do to get married and have kids. |
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Post by northstarmom on Mar 10, 2020 14:21:39 GMT -5
“ How do you know if someone has or hasn't wanted to have sex anymore on their own vs wanting to have sex with a specific person.
I feel she just doesn't want to have sex first of all. Then additionally, she doesn't want to with me because at times she doesn't want me to be happy or "too happy".”
You probably won’t know. If she’s sexually averse to you but staying for the benefits of marriage she’ll never tell you.
You can, though, figure out if it’s worth it to stay married to someone who won’t have sex with you.
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Post by h on Mar 10, 2020 14:29:07 GMT -5
dd Whether she's averse to sex entirely, or just averse to sex with you, doesn't make a difference to you. The end result is the same. What does it matter if she may or may not desire someone else? The bottom line is that she doesn't desire you. Knowing which of those is true won't change anything for you.
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Mar 10, 2020 15:40:11 GMT -5
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 10, 2020 15:40:11 GMT -5
She's not ignoring your needs. She's obviously well aware. She is trapped in the same impossible box as you. She's either not into this marriage at all, or not into you, sexually (and a marriage as opposed to a household, is somewhat contingent on that). Her need is to avoid having sex with someone who she doesn't see as a sexual partner. She hasn't forgotten how to have sex or want it. Your need to have sex with your intended partner. She does not want it with you. There's lots of people you don't want to have sex with, that you'd avoid it with if you could. That's how she feels in this circumstance. It's unlikely to change - which leaves you both in a near celibate deadlock. But it isn't a matter of learned etiquette that she's missing somehow. She's actively overriding her own drive. How do you know if someone has or hasn't wanted to have sex anymore on their own vs wanting to have sex with a specific person. I'm not the one who is claiming her lack of attention to you is "proof" that she's non-sexual. If you split, do you think she's going to be celibate for the rest of her life? It's the most common thing in the world with these situations. My own ex had an affair. A day after we split, she had a personals ad up as well. "She didn't like sex," she used to insist. She had a boyfriend and at least one side guy within a week. I've been in the middle aged singles scene for what, 6? 7 years now. And as of NY Day, I am again. It's the most common story I hear from attractive divorced or separated women - "I thought I hated sex" |
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dd
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Post by dd on Apr 4, 2020 21:30:02 GMT -5
My decision to leave is getting clearer, but I go through these periods of "Oh, it's not so bad" and then a day like today which was fine, I felt like I was on egg shells when she woke up.
At dinner we got some takeout and she pointed out I ordered to burgers for myself. I had ordered a larger one to trade with my won who got a "kids" size.
Also at dinner we were talking about school being back in session and I made a light-hearted joke because my daughter has been stressing too much and my wife calls me out in front of the kids that "it's always a joke to me".
When it's far from that. I do appreciate humor and making people laugh, but it does not come with a lack of responsibility.
I don't know if I should bring this back up with her as something for her to improve on, or if I should just ignore and try to take small steps to leaving.
After an email I sent explaining where I was at, she wanted counseling. She filled out an online form with a counselor but mysteriously never heard back. She then seemed to suggest we just work on it ourselves. She seems scared of going through the emotion of telling the stories.
I think she wants to wait it out, but from watching youtube videos on narcissistic behavior, my wife checks 9 of the 10 boxes consistently. Some of the descriptions are erie to hear.
I'm private with my private life in general, and I lack true friends at this moment, (but I have friends I would reach out to once I got divorced where I could live like my old self again).
Right now my mom (who I had a good relationship with growing up) seems like the best person I could tell about this. She (and our family) views divorce as failure, but I almost feel the need to say "Hey, I think when this COVID thing is over, I'm going to need to divorce and it's a good thing, not a bad thing, and if I'm not by X number of months after this is over I need you to ask me if things are really better or if I need help to get out".
In the last couple months I started mentally taking the steps on where I would live, how I would handle the kids, school, school bus, etc.
Financially it won't be easy and the timing is never perfect I'm sure, but it seems like I need to take that step.
The idea of living for a year or two without that anxiety of being judged is becoming worth it in itself. Not to mention the idea of eventually finding someone to have a flirty relationship with which would seem like a whole new life.
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dd
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Post by dd on Apr 4, 2020 21:45:28 GMT -5
I think she wants to wait it out, but from watching youtube videos on narcissistic behavior, my wife checks 9 of the 10 boxes consistently. Brace for a long, bitter divorce. Unless of course you can trick her into filing first. Yeh. Greeeaaaat. Years ago she joked to her mom that would be an easy split, but if it's my idea, I could see this becoming a real problem. Financially I care, but I don't care, if that makes sense. She's not a "nasty" person by a typical definition but she's managed to control me into this box where I simply don't experience any joy. So I'm partly worried about seeing a whole new nasty side come out of nowhere. |
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