onempty
Junior Member
I'm almost free...
Posts: 60
Age Range: 51-55
|
Post by onempty on Mar 2, 2022 14:41:37 GMT -5
Sex, intimacy or lack of, has been discussed between us many, many times over the last 23 years. I’m just sick of the bs answers I get and how it turns into a huge fight about many other problems in the marriage. When we fight about something it usually lasts weeks if not months until I apologize. Then after I do I have to sit there and listen how much I hurt her and how cruel I am.
We’ve had that tension between us for months now which is why I wanted the talk again and this time suggest perhaps it’s best we divorce. Divorce talk also wouldn’t be the first time. But after reading the replies and the fact I haven’t talked to a lawyer, I decided I’d try and talk about it again to try and find out why without any ultimatums. It quickly turned into the usual shit show. It turns out she has been mad at me for months. Why? I don’t help around the house enough, I don’t cook enough, and I play too many video games.
I told her she’s right, I can help around the house and cook more (never mind I work full a full time job and she doesn’t work and she cooks maybe twice a week). Video games I didn’t think a problem because I usually will play on weekend mornings when she’s still sleeping or sometimes at night when she goes to bed. I don’t understand the big deal. I brought up why should I go to bed at the same time when all she does is roll over on her side facing away from me? She says, “so this is about sex again”!!! Then it was on. All grievances including her ridiculous spending habits. She says “why are we even married then”? She’s very good at asking the question in a hypothetical way and in my anger I fall into the trap. I slept on the coach last night and I only wished we had a spare room. I have no idea what will happen from here. It’s the same old bs.
|
|
|
|
Post by Apocrypha on Mar 2, 2022 17:49:27 GMT -5
Sex, intimacy or lack of, has been discussed between us many, many times over the last 23 years. I’m just sick of the bs answers I get and how it turns into a huge fight about many other problems in the marriage. When we fight about something it usually lasts weeks if not months until I apologize. Then after I do I have to sit there and listen how much I hurt her and how cruel I am. We’ve had that tension between us for months now which is why I wanted the talk again and this time suggest perhaps it’s best we divorce. Divorce talk also wouldn’t be the first time. But after reading the replies and the fact I haven’t talked to a lawyer, I decided I’d try and talk about it again to try and find out why without any ultimatums. It quickly turned into the usual shit show. It turns out she has been mad at me for months. Why? I don’t help around the house enough, I don’t cook enough, and I play too many video games. I told her she’s right, I can help around the house and cook more (never mind I work full a full time job and she doesn’t work and she cooks maybe twice a week). Video games I didn’t think a problem because I usually will play on weekend mornings when she’s still sleeping or sometimes at night when she goes to bed. I don’t understand the big deal. I brought up why should I go to bed at the same time when all she does is roll over on her side facing away from me? She says, “so this is about sex again”!!! Then it was on. All grievances including her ridiculous spending habits. She says “why are we even married then”? She’s very good at asking the question in a hypothetical way and in my anger I fall into the trap. I slept on the coach last night and I only wished we had a spare room. I have no idea what will happen from here. It’s the same old bs. The problem here isn't that there are problems in the relationship. There are always problems in a relationship, as well as problems that come from being just alive in the world. Typically when someone is asked a question about the lack of intimacy, whatever problem happens to be present is offered as a reason - but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the lack of intimacy. Solve that problem and another arises. So, in this case, it's about "doing things around the house". And maybe that's true - maybe you can do more. So you do, but the sex part doesn't arrive. Whatever is next in line in the list of gripes comes to the top. It doesn't end because none of us are without problems. In my own situation with Mrs Aprocrypha, she got down to one day a week part time work, and I cooked 6 days a week, and she still didn't have enough time or room for me. It seemed perfectly reasonable to her. She even got on my case for dirtying the dishes - cooking her dinner. We have a dishwasher, even. So the issue here likely isn't the dishes, nor the games, nor whatever. My partner is a bit of a slob at home, but I still want to bang her. Her lack of tidiness is part of the cost of entry. Either the price of the ticket is worth it or not. In a married relationship, people might complain about that price, but they still want to see the show. In this case, it seems she isn't interested in that show, nor any price. If you look closely at it though, aren't YOU in the same marriage as her? I'm sure she's no picnic either, but you still have a unique attraction to her and don't mind showing it. Whereas the way she is acting, she resents you even showing her that you desire her. It seems there is a deeper substrate that's underneath the chores and gripes. Consider, if she lived on her own, she'd still have to work (likely more), do laundry, cook food, etc. even if you weren't a part of the situation. Her question "Why are we married?" is a question to approach openly, calmly, and honestly. What is a marriage? You may differ from each other on this - but what are the parts you can agree on? How is a marriage different from other kinds of relationships? Do you have what either of you see as a marriage? Don't get ahead of yourselves and go directly to what you are going to do - just first start on those definitions and ask yourself honestly and without rancour. It sounds like, despite most people warning you - you went ahead and discussed divorce, even though you aren't sure. It sounds like you have discussed divorce before as well, and are still married. It's a safe bet that she thinks any discussion of divorce from you is not serious and is instead hyperbolic catastrophizing, and empty manipulative threats. May I suggest - again - that you take divorce off the table as a point of discussion. Either do it or don't, but quit dangling it. Discussing it isn't going to help at this point. If she says you are "cruel" it's apparent that she is telling you directly how she feels about you as a person. Regardless of whether she is justified or not, she's shown you her cards. She doesn't want sex with you - she sees you as a bad person. She doesn't like you, and she probably doesn't want sex with someone she doesn't like anymore. So regardless of how hard you work, or how many floors you wash, and consoles you toss, it might make the household management easier for her. Might improve your friendship and cooperation. But I can tell you from experience - even a great co-operative relationship doesn't make someone see you as a romantic partner, after they have already changed their opinion on that and don't see you that way anymore. |
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Mar 2, 2022 18:28:52 GMT -5
Sex, intimacy or lack of, has been discussed between us many, many times over the last 23 years. I’m just sick of the bs answers I get and how it turns into a huge fight about many other problems in the marriage. When we fight about something it usually lasts weeks if not months until I apologize. Then after I do I have to sit there and listen how much I hurt her and how cruel I am. We’ve had that tension between us for months now which is why I wanted the talk again and this time suggest perhaps it’s best we divorce. Divorce talk also wouldn’t be the first time. But after reading the replies and the fact I haven’t talked to a lawyer, I decided I’d try and talk about it again to try and find out why without any ultimatums. It quickly turned into the usual shit show. It turns out she has been mad at me for months. Why? I don’t help around the house enough, I don’t cook enough, and I play too many video games. I told her she’s right, I can help around the house and cook more (never mind I work full a full time job and she doesn’t work and she cooks maybe twice a week). Video games I didn’t think a problem because I usually will play on weekend mornings when she’s still sleeping or sometimes at night when she goes to bed. I don’t understand the big deal. I brought up why should I go to bed at the same time when all she does is roll over on her side facing away from me? She says, “so this is about sex again”!!! Then it was on. All grievances including her ridiculous spending habits. She says “why are we even married then”? She’s very good at asking the question in a hypothetical way and in my anger I fall into the trap. I slept on the coach last night and I only wished we had a spare room. I have no idea what will happen from here. It’s the same old bs. Your wife has been grooming you and training you for years to respond to her changing the subject (quickly and confidently) and pointing the finger back at you. No matter how wrong her false accusations are at you, she knows that it will upset you, put you on the defensive,and she will win. Why? Because you want to love her and receive more than a crumb of affection from her. Her? She has detached herself from you years ago. She has zero empathy. Not just for you but most likely towards most people. All of this is from my voice of experience and hundreds of thousands of other men and woman who have lost years of their lives to a manipulative controller. shrink4men.com/2019/11/27/darvo-deny-attack-and-reverse-victim-and-offender-video/ |
|
|
|
Post by baza on Mar 2, 2022 23:04:42 GMT -5
Sorry to hear that "the talk" got derailed Brother onempty . It might now be timely to drop that agenda and undertake a fearless inventory of your marriage instead. An often seen quote in this group is that - "everything is great bar the sex". You've said it (so did I back in the day) and so did/does just about every other member of this group .... initially. Then, as more information is disclosed, the worse the situation looks (to an outsider with no axe to grind) In fact, most marriages that filter their way down to this group present as ILIASM shitholes with assorted issues in play. So that's my suggestion. Put your deal right under the microscope and take a good hard and objective look at it. Scrub any ideas of revisiting "the talk" at this stage. Concentrate on that objective examination of exactly what's wrong (and what's right) as well. This review is no easy matter, and may be a painful process but it is imperative to drill down to the truth, so you know exactly what you are dealing with. |
|
|
|
Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Mar 2, 2022 23:49:54 GMT -5
onempty This down below! Them be the facts My story is similar to yours in some respects and I agree with everythkng written below. She doesnt want to fuck you. Now its your move. Talking about divorce will not help any. Get on with it. Invest your emotional energy into yourself. Get fit, find support, hang out with your buddies. Sex, intimacy or lack of, has been discussed between us many, many times over the last 23 years. I’m just sick of the bs answers I get and how it turns into a huge fight about many other problems in the marriage. When we fight about something it usually lasts weeks if not months until I apologize. Then after I do I have to sit there and listen how much I hurt her and how cruel I am. We’ve had that tension between us for months now which is why I wanted the talk again and this time suggest perhaps it’s best we divorce. Divorce talk also wouldn’t be the first time. But after reading the replies and the fact I haven’t talked to a lawyer, I decided I’d try and talk about it again to try and find out why without any ultimatums. It quickly turned into the usual shit show. It turns out she has been mad at me for months. Why? I don’t help around the house enough, I don’t cook enough, and I play too many video games. I told her she’s right, I can help around the house and cook more (never mind I work full a full time job and she doesn’t work and she cooks maybe twice a week). Video games I didn’t think a problem because I usually will play on weekend mornings when she’s still sleeping or sometimes at night when she goes to bed. I don’t understand the big deal. I brought up why should I go to bed at the same time when all she does is roll over on her side facing away from me? She says, “so this is about sex again”!!! Then it was on. All grievances including her ridiculous spending habits. She says “why are we even married then”? She’s very good at asking the question in a hypothetical way and in my anger I fall into the trap. I slept on the coach last night and I only wished we had a spare room. I have no idea what will happen from here. It’s the same old bs. The problem here isn't that there are problems in the relationship. There are always problems in a relationship, as well as problems that come from being just alive in the world. Typically when someone is asked a question about the lack of intimacy, whatever problem happens to be present is offered as a reason - but that doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the lack of intimacy. Solve that problem and another arises. So, in this case, it's about "doing things around the house". And maybe that's true - maybe you can do more. So you do, but the sex part doesn't arrive. Whatever is next in line in the list of gripes comes to the top. It doesn't end because none of us are without problems. In my own situation with Mrs Aprocrypha, she got down to one day a week part time work, and I cooked 6 days a week, and she still didn't have enough time or room for me. It seemed perfectly reasonable to her. She even got on my case for dirtying the dishes - cooking her dinner. We have a dishwasher, even. So the issue here likely isn't the dishes, nor the games, nor whatever. My partner is a bit of a slob at home, but I still want to bang her. Her lack of tidiness is part of the cost of entry. Either the price of the ticket is worth it or not. In a married relationship, people might complain about that price, but they still want to see the show. In this case, it seems she isn't interested in that show, nor any price. If you look closely at it though, aren't YOU in the same marriage as her? I'm sure she's no picnic either, but you still have a unique attraction to her and don't mind showing it. Whereas the way she is acting, she resents you even showing her that you desire her. It seems there is a deeper substrate that's underneath the chores and gripes. Consider, if she lived on her own, she'd still have to work (likely more), do laundry, cook food, etc. even if you weren't a part of the situation. Her question "Why are we married?" is a question to approach openly, calmly, and honestly. What is a marriage? You may differ from each other on this - but what are the parts you can agree on? How is a marriage different from other kinds of relationships? Do you have what either of you see as a marriage? Don't get ahead of yourselves and go directly to what you are going to do - just first start on those definitions and ask yourself honestly and without rancour. It sounds like, despite most people warning you - you went ahead and discussed divorce, even though you aren't sure. It sounds like you have discussed divorce before as well, and are still married. It's a safe bet that she thinks any discussion of divorce from you is not serious and is instead hyperbolic catastrophizing, and empty manipulative threats. May I suggest - again - that you take divorce off the table as a point of discussion. Either do it or don't, but quit dangling it. Discussing it isn't going to help at this point. If she says you are "cruel" it's apparent that she is telling you directly how she feels about you as a person. Regardless of whether she is justified or not, she's shown you her cards. She doesn't want sex with you - she sees you as a bad person. She doesn't like you, and she probably doesn't want sex with someone she doesn't like anymore. So regardless of how hard you work, or how many floors you wash, and consoles you toss, it might make the household management easier for her. Might improve your friendship and cooperation. But I can tell you from experience - even a great co-operative relationship doesn't make someone see you as a romantic partner, after they have already changed their opinion on that and don't see you that way anymore.
|
|
|
|
Post by ironhamster on Mar 3, 2022 0:58:15 GMT -5
The wife there has complaints, but the complaints aren't reasons. The complaints are excuses. Reasons can be fixed. Excuses can't.
|
|
onempty
Junior Member
I'm almost free...
Posts: 60
Age Range: 51-55
|
Post by onempty on Mar 3, 2022 10:15:08 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the advice. Sadly, I think everything you have all said is true. It just sucks because I don’t want a divorce but it’s looking more and more like this is the end. We have 3 daughters ages 18, 20, and 22. The middle daughter suffers from drug resistant depression and recently dropped out of college. She is already asking questions. I worry about her.
|
|
onempty
Junior Member
I'm almost free...
Posts: 60
Age Range: 51-55
|
Post by onempty on Mar 3, 2022 11:00:20 GMT -5
Do you all want to hear something else hilarious…. I’m not a fan of a lot of tattoos on a woman. I’m not here to debate that or it’s her body. Etc. Tomorrow her friend is buying her another tattoo presumably for an early birthday present, on her arm. That will go along with the one on her foot, ankle, ribs, and back of neck. Her actions just scream “don’t touch me”. I finally get it.
|
|
|
|
Post by h on Mar 3, 2022 11:02:11 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the advice. Sadly, I think everything you have all said is true. It just sucks because I don’t want a divorce but it’s looking more and more like this is the end. We have 3 daughters ages 18, 20, and 22. The middle daughter suffers from drug resistant depression and recently dropped out of college. She is already asking questions. I worry about her. You're not going to be able to help your depressed daughter if you're depressed yourself. |
|
onempty
Junior Member
I'm almost free...
Posts: 60
Age Range: 51-55
|
Post by onempty on Mar 3, 2022 11:07:55 GMT -5
Do you all want to hear something else hilarious…. I’m not a fan of a lot of tattoos on a woman. I’m not here to debate that or it’s her body. Etc. Tomorrow her friend is buying her another tattoo presumably for an early birthday present, on her arm. That will go along with the one on her foot, ankle, ribs, and back of neck. Her actions just scream “don’t touch me”. I finally get it.
|
|
|
|
Post by northstarmom on Mar 3, 2022 13:04:13 GMT -5
onempty: "The middle daughter suffers from drug resistant depression and recently dropped out of college. "
I avoided going home when I was suicidally depressed in college. I knew I'd be more depressed being around my parents who were in a sexless, absolutely miserable marriage.
|
|
|
|
Post by greatcoastal on Mar 3, 2022 17:24:55 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the advice. Sadly, I think everything you have all said is true. It just sucks because I don’t want a divorce but it’s looking more and more like this is the end. We have 3 daughters ages 18, 20, and 22. The middle daughter suffers from drug resistant depression and recently dropped out of college. She is already asking questions. I worry about her. You're not going to be able to help your depressed daughter if you're depressed yourself. The final tipping point that made me end my 25 yr. SM was words from my therapist, our marriage counselor : " you two are setting a horrible example for your children of what a loving ,caring, intimate, relationship out to be". Another 'surprise' was how many divorced people testify : "My children where actually happy for me that I got divorced. They where hoping, and waiting for it to happen" |
|
onempty
Junior Member
I'm almost free...
Posts: 60
Age Range: 51-55
|
Post by onempty on Mar 3, 2022 18:40:01 GMT -5
.
Another 'surprise' was how many divorced people testify : "My children where actually happy for me that I got divorced. They where hoping, and waiting for it to happen"[/quote]
I’m 100% sure my kids won’t feel this way. I know people say how perceptive kids are but we don’t often fight. They, and almost everyone else, have no idea how bad things are.
|
|
|
|
Post by ironhamster on Mar 3, 2022 18:48:34 GMT -5
Thanks everyone for the advice. Sadly, I think everything you have all said is true. It just sucks because I don’t want a divorce but it’s looking more and more like this is the end. We have 3 daughters ages 18, 20, and 22. The middle daughter suffers from drug resistant depression and recently dropped out of college. She is already asking questions. I worry about her. At least your kids are old enough that they can understand. Even your troubled daughter knows there is something wrong with your marriage, and you can assume the other kids know, too. Let them know that you love them. Hopefully your wife won't try to play mind games with them to turn them against you. Keep in mind that they will know these relationship problems exist whether they are prolonged or brought to a conclusion. A home can be a broken home even with a legally intact marriage. |
|
|
|
Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Mar 3, 2022 19:39:59 GMT -5
I feel the agony in your words. I know that doesnt mean much coming from a stranger but know that I empathize. Only you can decide what is best for you. That notwithstanding, you will get lots of knowledgeable advice here. Particularly in terms of understanding your options and framing them so that decisions can be made. If you don't want a divorce, figure out a way to stay. Stay and cheat. Maybe your relationship at home will improve. There is a saying. You leave when the pain of staying is greater than pain of leaving. Ask yourself if you are there yet? Maybe you will be in a few years. Then you will be mentally ready. But until then, invest in yourself and your wellbeing. Mental, spiritual, physical and sexual well being. Do you all want to hear something else hilarious…. I’m not a fan of a lot of tattoos on a woman. I’m not here to debate that or it’s her body. Etc. Tomorrow her friend is buying her another tattoo presumably for an early birthday present, on her arm. That will go along with the one on her foot, ankle, ribs, and back of neck. Her actions just scream “don’t touch me”. I finally get it. |
|
