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Post by greatcoastal on Mar 15, 2022 19:14:47 GMT -5
Last couple days we haven't saw much of each other. One day it seems like we are 100% divorcing the next maybe we will at least try therapy. I'd like to try therapy but I'm not sure about her. I'm going to go with or without her. I found a therapist I guess I like. If we see him the first thing he will do is have us do the Grottoman survey. I'm very curious to see how that will turn out. Everything still very much in the air. But I've made such a huge issue out of sex and intimacy that anything she was to give me, if we ever even attempted it, would feel fake. I kind of wish I had kept my mouth shut and attempted to outsource. See if any of this resonates with your soon to be ex's behaviors,and how you need to deal with it. It's a lot of new eye opening truths that do take some time to deal with. However, once the truth is more and more exposed you can feel much better about your self, your future healing, and that you are making the right, yet difficult, decision for you, her, and the whole family. |
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onempty
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Post by onempty on Mar 16, 2022 10:19:00 GMT -5
Any opinions on a mediator vs getting an attorney? I’ve spoken to both. I’d rather do mediation but he told me I better move to another county because the judge I’m going to get is very tough. It seems like everything is just falling down all around me.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 17, 2022 0:12:45 GMT -5
Any opinions on a mediator vs getting an attorney? I’ve spoken to both. I’d rather do mediation but he told me I better move to another county because the judge I’m going to get is very tough. It seems like everything is just falling down all around me. I'm not sure I understand the comment - can you clarify? A mediation is a process in which disputing parties agree to appoint a neutral third party to assist them in attempting to reach a voluntary settlement. The neutral third party does not make the decision, and the parties may terminate the process at any time. It can be a lawyer, a social worker, maybe a child care worker. I suppose it could be a former judge - but I'm not sure how an active judge would be involved in this process, since the point of mediation is to avoid court. If you meant to go to attorneys to fight it out in court right away, that's often an expensive option. Again, I'm not sure I understand about a judge being tough. Tough on men in a divorce, do you mean? As in favouring excessive benefits to women in disputes? Here is what I would recommend: Order two copies of The Smart Divorce www.amazon.ca/Smart-Divorce-Strategies-Financial-Counselors/dp/1556526725 This will present some basic approaches that cover of the broad strokes, largely irrespective of Western jurisdictions. It's a short read - you take one and give one to her. The essence of it is that whatever the two of you fail to agree on, on your own (it provides a base framework), you will have to hash out with lawyers and possibly with court at many many times the cost, while likely ending up somewhere in the middle anyway. If you can agree to this approach and work cooperatively on how to split your household enterprise, you can save a lot of money and time. I personally prefer mediation or "collaborative practice divorce" - in which lawyers take on a collaborative role rather than an adversarial one, if you can do it. |
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onempty
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Post by onempty on Mar 17, 2022 7:07:47 GMT -5
Any opinions on a mediator vs getting an attorney? I’ve spoken to both. I’d rather do mediation but he told me I better move to another county because the judge I’m going to get is very tough. It seems like everything is just falling down all around me. I'm not sure I understand the comment - can you clarify? A mediation is a process in which disputing parties agree to appoint a neutral third party to assist them in attempting to reach a voluntary settlement. The neutral third party does not make the decision, and the parties may terminate the process at any time. It can be a lawyer, a social worker, maybe a child care worker. I suppose it could be a former judge - but I'm not sure how an active judge would be involved in this process, since the point of mediation is to avoid court. If you meant to go to attorneys to fight it out in court right away, that's often an expensive option. Again, I'm not sure I understand about a judge being tough. Tough on men in a divorce, do you mean? As in favouring excessive benefits to women in disputes? Here is what I would recommend: Order two copies of The Smart Divorce www.amazon.ca/Smart-Divorce-Strategies-Financial-Counselors/dp/1556526725 This will present some basic approaches that cover of the broad strokes, largely irrespective of Western jurisdictions. It's a short read - you take one and give one to her. The essence of it is that whatever the two of you fail to agree on, on your own (it provides a base framework), you will have to hash out with lawyers and possibly with court at many many times the cost, while likely ending up somewhere in the middle anyway. If you can agree to this approach and work cooperatively on how to split your household enterprise, you can save a lot of money and time. I personally prefer mediation or "collaborative practice divorce" - in which lawyers take on a collaborative role rather than an adversarial one, if you can do it. The mediation service I called is a guy who we woulld pay a flat fee to ($2500) and he would help us reach an agreement. The way he made it sound it then had to be signed off by the Family Court judge in our county. He told me the judge that does most or all doesn’t just sign off on it. She spends a lot of time on it and will not sign off on some things and even make changes. I wouldn’t see how she could do that if we agreed but he said I’d be best moving to another county and establish residency before filing. But that really isn’t feasible. We both are getting lawyers so we won’t be using him anyway. The big battle will be for the condo. We got it cheap last year and completely remodeled it and it’s beautiful. Comps on apartments which suck are same as the mortgage. We both want it so I’m not sure what happens or if we’d be forced to sell it. I hope if I can’t get it it gets sold. Funny how you love someone then all of a sudden you loathe them. I can’t wait to be out of this even though I expect to be so poor I don’t know how I’ll get by much less afford dating again. I had my brother order that book. Thx. I look forward to reading it. We told one daughter yesterday. Probably the hardest thing I’ve ever done. Have to tell the other two today. Middle one that fights depression already kind of knows the marriage was in danger but she will be pissed that we didn’t even try therapy. That’s my STBX’a fault but I won’t tell her that. My oldest will be most devastated of all. She loves the family and family functions and holidays are her favorite days. Poor girl. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 17, 2022 10:59:16 GMT -5
The mediation service I called is a guy who we woulld pay a flat fee to ($2500) and he would help us reach an agreement. The way he made it sound it then had to be signed off by the Family Court judge in our county. He told me the judge that does most or all doesn’t just sign off on it. She spends a lot of time on it and will not sign off on some things and even make changes. I wouldn’t see how she could do that if we agreed but he said I’d be best moving to another county and establish residency before filing. But that really isn’t feasible. We both are getting lawyers so we won’t be using him anyway. You can both still agree to seek "collaborative practice" family lawyers if they are available. They tend to be more expensive in the short run but cheaper in the long run. It's worth looking them up - you both have to agree to that approach. You likely have to wait a period of time during separation before you can divorce, living separately, so one of you may be moving anyway - if that affects the feasibility assessment of moving out of county. If it's a big county or you aren't presently living near the border, I guess it's the hard way. In my jurisdiction - and this varies - the marital home is entitled to be split 50%. People may agree to an alternative split (usually offset by an alternative split with another asset), but if there is going to be a battle for it (meaning court), the home is going to be sold and split. A lot of people tend to have mixed feelings about living in a marital home after a split - bad associations - but practical matters may take priority. If one of you is not experiencing financial pressure and if there are practicalities such as needing a place for kids to live in, there are sometimes opportunities that can be worked out. In my own case, we are discussing my ex-wife retaining equity in the marital home until such time that it is sold, like an investor, while I live in it. Another option is a "nesting" arrangement - this is where the parents swap out to a different apartment and the kids stay in the home, or when one parent stays offsite except during their time with kids, and then lives at the house when it is their time with kids (separate bedrooms and space needed for parents, obviously). It's hard though - I tried and was not able to work it out with my ex, who almost immediately violated the "hotel" rules of our agreement. I hope if I can’t get it it gets sold. Funny how you love someone then all of a sudden you loathe them. I can’t wait to be out of this even though I expect to be so poor I don’t know how I’ll get by much less afford dating again. No problem - but it's unlikely to offer the full benefit unless your soon to be ex is also reading it and agreeing in principle to it. It's as hard to do a cooperative split with someone who hasn't bought onboard as it is to be married to someone who isn't on board. |
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onempty
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Post by onempty on Mar 18, 2022 6:12:21 GMT -5
Uh oh. Found out my STBX somehow got her own credit card and used it to put down a $4k retainer fee on a lawyer. That's double what mine cost! I think I may be in trouble. This is getting uglier by the minute.
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onempty
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Post by onempty on Mar 20, 2022 17:47:04 GMT -5
It’s only been a bit over a week since we decided to divorce. It’s so stressful I can’t believe it. My resolve is already going away. Am I doing the right thing? Am I going to be the first person on this forum to regret leaving their SM? I’ve been married to this woman 23 years. I miss her. Sex and intimacy far from our only issues but I made it the biggest for me. No going back now. Alot of angry words and my wife absolutely hates me now. No point to this post really. Just a very, very down day. I’m trying to find a therapist that takes my insurance which is proving difficult. I have no local support here. I just feel like crying today. I’m not usually such a wimp.
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Post by baza on Mar 20, 2022 18:05:45 GMT -5
I think that there IS a "point to this post" Brother onempty , that being what any newbie can learn out of your posts. In particular the advisability of getting legal advice early on in the process, shoring up your support network, developing your exit strategy and researching how you might shepherd any kids through the process. In effect, your posts might be of fantastic value to some newbie earlier on in their process than you. Possibly similar to when you (as a newbie) may have drawn value out of the posts of say Brother ironhamster and others. Sorry your ILIASM dismantling is proving difficult, but your post may be helping someone else here. |
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 20, 2022 22:36:05 GMT -5
It’s only been a bit over a week since we decided to divorce. It’s so stressful I can’t believe it. My resolve is already going away. Am I doing the right thing? Am I going to be the first person on this forum to regret leaving their SM? I’ve been married to this woman 23 years. I miss her. Sex and intimacy far from our only issues but I made it the biggest for me. No going back now. Alot of angry words and my wife absolutely hates me now. No point to this post really. Just a very, very down day. I’m trying to find a therapist that takes my insurance which is proving difficult. I have no local support here. I just feel like crying today. I’m not usually such a wimp. It was apparent, based on what you wrote, that she had a great deal of contempt for you or the marriage before. People tend to frame this kind of thing as "sex" vs "family/marriage/household" at first as a way of minimizing the lack of intimacy. Consider looking farther upstream from the lack of intimacy, and suddenly it won't seem like such a small thing. There is a reason there is no intimacy - likely a result of the contempt she has for you, and has had for you and the marriage for years. That's not really a small thing, living with someone who hates you and treats you like shit. PS: consider also that she is also making sex and intimacy with you as big an issue as you are. It's evidently incredibly important to her. Otherwise, if she really didn't care about it so much, why wouldn't she boff you instead of blowing up her entire life? |
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Post by worksforme2 on Mar 21, 2022 5:10:26 GMT -5
Apocrypha could have been writing about my relationship as it approached "deal breaker status". When I finally knew my X no longer considered me as an Alpha male and thus no longer a candidate for her affection, I started seeing the extent of her disdain for me. This behavior from her was key for me in being able to distance myself from her. My X didn't treat me like s*it, but she did act as if I mattered very little in her life, and would probably matter even less going forward. We were already in separate bedrooms and she had taken several trips overseas without me, so the writing was on the wall. Likely something similar could be found in your deal if you stepped back and looked at it closely.
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Post by mirrororchid on Mar 21, 2022 6:28:03 GMT -5
It’s only been a bit over a week since we decided to divorce. It’s so stressful I can’t believe it. My resolve is already going away. Am I doing the right thing? Am I going to be the first person on this forum to regret leaving their SM? I’ve been married to this woman 23 years. I miss her. Sex and intimacy far from our only issues but I made it the biggest for me. No going back now. A lot of angry words and my wife absolutely hates me now. No point to this post really. Just a very, very down day. I’m trying to find a therapist that takes my insurance which is proving difficult. I have no local support here. I just feel like crying today. I’m not usually such a wimp. As others pointed out, she hated you before you decided to escape her dark cloud. (and that is what you're doing.) My suspicion is you may have a lot of your identity tied up in being Mrs. Onempty's husband. It's been a miserable person to be, but at least you knew who you were. Your house burns down, you lose a job, you have a disabling injury? You can cry a while. These are huge. Divorce counts. You may want to let the tears flow and know they serve a purpose. Squeeze them out. Let it drain. The marriage wasn't technically dead, but the EEG machine was flatlined years ago and you're sensibly pulling the plug on the life support machine. It was a charade of life carrying on, breathing, feeding by tube. Got a divorce support group somewhere? (Do some crying before you go. That way you'll only cry a minute or two when you get there.) Group therapy has high benefits even compared with professional help. Studies confirm this. If your support network isn't robust, you can still give it some gas. Get among some other people and pretend to be okay. Eventually, it stops being pretending. Finally, my bad advice. Go on platonic dates. Hit de apps. Taste the future (watch it! wait for the ink to dry before you partake of the physical. That stuff is kryptonite to guys, twice over if you're newly single (or about to be.)) Tweak your profile now, before you're even eligible. Practice on a market one town over so you have the locals to mingle with after you've found your "game" and stop slipping up by mentioning your divorce/wife. Rebounds are supposed to be a bad idea. You're supposed to do a relationship autopsy so you don't get in a relationship just like the old one. I'm suggesting to ignore that sound advice for now. You're in such a crap mood, I'm figuring adult companionship will be a shot in your arm you can really use right now. Oh, and no exclusivity either. You've been depending on a lady for your meaning of life for quite some time. No pairing up. Not until you do that autopsy thing. Might want to look at GreatCoastal's post-marriage dating experience, if you haven't already. He invested deeply, but kept sight of who he was and what limits he had to keep. EDIT: The results of GreatCoastal, WorksforMe2, my own experience, and those of other ILIASM escapees have clouded my perspective and made me forget a lot of folks find the outside world not so warm. It made me overlook not everyone hits "the market" successfully. So, caveat emptor. Feeling shitty, then hitting the apps (even platonically) and striking out would truly suck, so... my bad advice could easily be horrible instead. Finding validation in your own choices, accomplishments, friendships... it's a better long term bet. Chalk this up to my supreme desire for you to come out of this dark period quickly and well. If you're game, I'd cheer you on for a good adult friend as well, but I had to check my enthusiasm. Most people have to be drunk to write like this. |
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Post by TheGreatContender -aka Daddeeo on Mar 21, 2022 12:23:27 GMT -5
onempty as others have pointed out, she had disdain for you and you are now seeing it. The missing sex was a symptom. You insisting on it was a vivid reminder to her of that disdain and she did not feel the need to justify her actions to you. You insisting on sex, intimacy was your gut telling you something was off. Use this knowledge to withdraw yourself emotionally from what was a failing relationship. You are now on the right path. Focus on yourself. The validation you seek will come from within. Stay busy with hobbies and exercise. This is the way to mentally reframe. That should be your short term goal. This community can be your support network. Seek out others and they will emerge.
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onempty
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Post by onempty on Mar 26, 2022 8:35:39 GMT -5
Small update: Not much on the legal front yet. She served me with a mutual restraining order which means I can’t move money, stop different insurance policies etc. I had actually move half to a new acct and send my paycheck there also but I can’t do that so I’ll move it back.
My wife is very hostile towards me when we see each other which isn’t that often. I try to keep my mouth shut and not fight but she makes it difficult. I’m feeling better about the whole situation. I’ve been looking at apartments and it’s pretty slim pickings with higher than mortgage rates but I still plan on getting one instead of trying to buy. I’d love to keep our condo but it’s not really feasible. I’m not sure what her living plans are yet. I started to see a therapist. Only one appt so far. I’m not sure about it. He seemed to wonder why I was there. Mentally I am doing much better. I’m ready to move on, I just wish it would move along faster.
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Post by Apocrypha on Mar 26, 2022 12:19:55 GMT -5
Small update: Not much on the legal front yet. She served me with a mutual restraining order which means I can’t move money, stop different insurance policies etc. I had actually move half to a new acct and send my paycheck there also but I can’t do that so I’ll move it back. My wife is very hostile towards me when we see each other which isn’t that often. I try to keep my mouth shut and not fight but she makes it difficult. I’m feeling better about the whole situation. I’ve been looking at apartments and it’s pretty slim pickings with higher than mortgage rates but I still plan on getting one instead of trying to buy. I’d love to keep our condo but it’s not really feasible. I’m not sure what her living plans are yet. I started to see a therapist. Only one appt so far. I’m not sure about it. He seemed to wonder why I was there. Mentally I am doing much better. I’m ready to move on, I just wish it would move along faster. It's a reason why I recommend to most people to consult a lawyer before you start doing things like moving funds out of a mutual account. Moving mutual assets and funds before they can be assessed and apportioned according to a separation agreement could be rightly construed as stealing. If you had been my own spouse and done that - it would have soured my optimism and cooperative spirit in the imminent divorce and replaced it with a justified certainty of acrimony. It would affect my choice of lawyer and legal approach accordingly, minimizing my level of care to ensure my spouse is set up for success in post marriage. Not to mention the real cost in money that the household pays to lawyers in legal services (this time via your wife) when one spouse launches a legal action to rightly prevent you from doing that without an agreement in place. This stage of a separation is like having a fistfight beside a pair of handguns placed on the table (representing the lawyers). Neither of you will get out of this without a black eye or a bruise, to be sure. But if one side begins losing too much, or if one side cheats on the rules, then the other will reach for that handgun and pull the trigger. It's not enough for both of you to be fair and transparent; you must also APPEAR to be fair and transparent. Of all the separated people I know, the ones who were most successful (mitigating the worst), were those who spoke to their spouses on agreed priorities - in many cases those were ensuring the kids were well cared for - and then adjusting their own negotiables around those priorities. They also declared their intentions to their spouses on how they intended or hoped to go about the process of separation, with an expectation to negotiate. They had some base principles to which they agreed - like not disclosing to kids the adult scenarios you dealt with - and like ensuring that your kids have a successful mother and father who both are doing well in their lives. The worst outcomes all came from people who unilaterally took actions like changing locks on doors, moving money to different accounts, taking assets, and accusing each other of crimes unwarranted. By worst - I mean devastatingly expensive and heartbreaking public conflicts. I explained to my own wife that my ideal divorce would mean that one day, we might both be at one of our kids' weddings, and still be able to enjoy the experience. |
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onempty
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Post by onempty on Mar 27, 2022 4:49:14 GMT -5
[/quote]It's a reason why I recommend to most people to consult a lawyer before you start doing things like moving funds out of a mutual account. Moving mutual assets and funds before they can be assessed and apportioned according to a separation agreement could be rightly construed as stealing. If you had been my own spouse and done that - it would have soured my optimism and cooperative spirit in the imminent divorce and replaced it with a justified certainty of acrimony. It would affect my choice of lawyer and legal approach accordingly, minimizing my level of care to ensure my spouse is set up for success in post marriage. Not to mention the real cost in money that the household pays to lawyers in legal services (this time via your wife) when one spouse launches a legal action to rightly prevent you from doing that without an agreement in place.
This stage of a separation is like having a fistfight beside a pair of handguns placed on the table (representing the lawyers).
Neither of you will get out of this without a black eye or a bruise, to be sure. But if one side begins losing too much, or if one side cheats on the rules, then the other will reach for that handgun and pull the trigger. It's not enough for both of you to be fair and transparent; you must also APPEAR to be fair and transparent.
Of all the separated people I know, the ones who were most successful (mitigating the worst), were those who spoke to their spouses on agreed priorities - in many cases those were ensuring the kids were well cared for - and then adjusting their own negotiables around those priorities. They also declared their intentions to their spouses on how they intended or hoped to go about the process of separation, with an expectation to negotiate. They had some base principles to which they agreed - like not disclosing to kids the adult scenarios you dealt with - and like ensuring that your kids have a successful mother and father who both are doing well in their lives.
The worst outcomes all came from people who unilaterally took actions like changing locks on doors, moving money to different accounts, taking assets, and accusing each other of crimes unwarranted. By worst - I mean devastatingly expensive and heartbreaking public conflicts. I explained to my own wife that my ideal divorce would mean that one day, we might both be at one of our kids' weddings, and still be able to enjoy the experience.[/quote]
You’ve been through this before and have read years of this type of situation so your points valid and people in earlier stages than me should take note but to defend my actions a bit …
I had initial consults with 2 different lawyers and neither mentioned any of this and I didn’t think to ask.
I suggested mediation but without saying anything she went out and retained the best lawyer she could find. Same one her friend used when she took her ex husband to the cleaners. You don’t do that unless you intend to do the same. My wife is the one who filed. From the very start she has been the hostile one.
As pointed out many times by others my wife had had total disdain for me for years.
My wife has a history of total disregard for our finances even during the good times. Gambled away our money and lied about it in the past. I have zero trust in her. I took half our meager savings and left her the other half. I don’t understand how that isn’t fair or would be considered “stealing”. I never moved any other asset except my paycheck which wasn’t such a good idea.
I have found this forum full of well intentioned people with a lot of good advice. Hopefully people read this thread and learn. But I’ve felt attacked on many of my posts and I think this will be my last.
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